Referendum is a load of crap.!!

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

No, this isn't over, not by a long shot! My personal view is that cutting all ties with Europe & the UK's complete withdrawal from the EU is the only way to achieve our sovereignty. (And I've been living in the middle of Europe for the last 32 years)

Everyone knows that when you are negotiating a deal on anything......you ask for far more than you would expect to get.
This is because, in the interests of bargaining you know very well you are going to have to give a little, to compromise(or at least to be seen to be making a compromise)....be accommodating to the other parties ideas.
David Cameron asked for very little, got even less......and with no guarantees that any of what has been agreed would be legally binding AFTER the results of the referendum.
What this means is, if the British public are stupid enough to see this as the real deal and opt to stay in the EU.....every single thing that has been agreed on yesterday can be thrown out.
Now I don't call that a deal. I call that a STITCH UP.
We do NOT need the EU......but they do need us to be in, there is a huge danger that if the UK were to leave the whole of the EU would crumble......and they know that.

I have no doubt at all about how my vote will be. There is nothing on Gods green earth that would persuade me to vote to stay in the EU.
This will be the second time I will have voted on this issue and in all of those years I have not seen anything about the EU that has changed my opinion one iota.

[cashman]

I agree wi MargaretP, they can shove it were the sun dont shine, Benefits will still be paid to people abroad, but pro-rata to meet their cost of living, thats taking the pish.

[Margaret Pilkington]

The big problem was that we sent a boy (in terms of politics)to do the job of a man.
We actually do not have a statesman that is up to the job of getting fairness from the EU.

The EU do not like us(not that that gives me one second of a worry...because I do not like them...we are not of Europe at all)and want to see us grovel.....they want our money, but our voice is never heard.....we are NEVER considered.
For goodness sake get us out of there.
I am saying this, but I believe that we will be like the Chinese prisoner in a cell with two doors.....one door leads to certain gory death, the other to freedom.....and we choose to stay imprisoned for fear of making a bold choice.
I think we are ensnared in an organisation which has none of our aims or values in its thoughts.

And for anyone who thinks I am being a 'Little Englander' I would say I am being true to my patriotic self.
If that is a sin, then I am guilty as charged.

[DaveinGermany]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

being a 'Little Englander'

Made the UK the "once" powerful nation it was, dominating the majority of the known world from our little group of islands just off the coast of Europe in the cold grey Atlantic.

[JCB]

In 1975 I voted to come out of the EEC .

I am not happy with referendums . We are a Parliamentary democracy and elect MPs to represent us .

Be that as it may , since we have referendums I will use my right to vote in them .

I have not been at ease with the notion of coming out of the EU . Those who want the UK to come out of the EU have not really presented a viable alternative , and I am concerned about the effects of leaving on our economy , especially on jobs . As Neil Kinnock said in his famous anti-Militant Tendency speech in 1985 , " You don't play politics with people's jobs . " If leaving the EU results in one person losing his/her job , it will be one lost job too many .

Ideally I would love to see us become a self-sufficient Socialist democracy , untethered from globalised Capitalism......but I suppose I will have to simply keep on dreaming on .

However , over recent months , and watching the shenanigans of our politicians whom I believe have just been playing party political games in the so-called "renegotiaions" , I am drawing close to a position where I sense that I may be voting NO as I did in 1975 .

[Margaret Pilkington]

JCB....it isn't even smoke and mirrors to bamboozle us.
It is clear to me that the EU has no intention of honouring any of these deals if the electorate vote to stay in the EU.....it has stated as much, so the 'deal' means absolutely nothing.
The proposal of sending home the EU migrants who fail to find a job within six months.....how risible is that when we have such porous borders that we haven't a clue who is here and who actually should be here.
Money that we contribute in taxes is still going to leach out of the country ( to enhance the economies of those countries)in child benefit(ok, so it will be at the rate paid in those countries - big deal).
As for trade, Jeremy Corbyn has just stated that the 'majority' of our trade is with the EU....this is not substantiated with facts....we only do 44% of trade with the EU.
Now I know I was pretty rubbish at maths in school, but I know that 44% is not a majority.
If our goods and services are competitive then trade will still continue with the EU.....ok so tariffs might be imposed....should that stop us?
I don't think it should. There is a big world out there.....we can trade in it.

The Emergency Brake is another failure as it will be left to EU members as to whether it should be applied.

The EU is anti democracy, it has shown that many times.
I do not want unelected representatives to be deciding laws that apply to me.
I do not want bureaucrats who cannot be held responsible, or to be ditched by democratic means to be deciding things that affect my life.

I would only be persuaded to stay in if our position in the EU was only for trade purposes......on second thoughts, not even that would persuade me because I know that their trading rules favour them, not us!
I will definitely be voting NO.
Not that I think it will make a jot of difference. I cannot see us getting out of it at all.

[DaveinGermany]

Originally Posted by JCB

We are a Parliamentary democracy and elect MPs to represent us .

In theory yes, but in the reality those days are long gone. When was the last time a "British" governments were free to make decisions for the British people without having to ensure they weren't infringing some directive/ruling/diktat that came out of Brussels?

I find it hard to believe that there are some folk who still can't see that the more enmeshed we become with Europe, the less our individual sovereign rights as "British nationals" & nation state can be maintained. The continual whittling away of our choices continues every day through all levels of our daily existence micro managed by faceless functionaries within the corridors of power in Brussels.

Our own weak willed, submissive, political classes are meekly, taking it for team GB, then heaping it out on Joe & Josephina public to suck it all up! No mate, those who still believe our democracy is run for "us" by our chosen representatives have well & truly been shafted over & quieted by the continuous stream of cultural marxist effluent pumped out of the sewers of Brussels!

Get the biggest spoon you can find & keep gagging it down! As that's the way it'll be (but without the light sprinkling of sugar on top) if the UK votes to stay in the EU.

[Margaret Pilkington]

I could not have put it better myself Son.
Every word is true.

[DaveinGermany]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

I could not have put it better myself Son.
Every word is true.

Your own views & pretty damn spot on too Ma!

[jelly baby]

Are mp's votes not confidential, as in an election?

[accyman]

i have no doubt in my mind that any agreement either wont be as we are led it to be or completely overturned by the EU within weeks of the referendum ending

all benefits to kids outside of the country should end with immediate effect not in 3 or 4 years time mainly because most of these kids dont even exist there has been no check that they exists and parents wernt even asked for so much as a birth certificate to prove they existed

[Margaret Pilkington]

If things carry on in the same vein then we could do away with MP 's and turn the
Palace of Westminster into dorms for asylum seekers and refugees.

The time spent in hammering out the minutiae of these so called deals took our attention away from the growing problems created by migrants in the EU.
(Also from the dire economic situations in the Eurozone....was this planned as a diversional ploy or is it just a coincidental thing).
A crisis which was worsened by badly thought out idealistic 'solutions' which far from solving the problem made it infinitely worse.
The EU is a donkey running in a race for thoroughbreds. It is too big, too ungainly with far too many members who cannot agree that there is daylight outside.
This corrupt institution has, for the 21st year, failed to balance its books. It fails to rein in its spending, it does not ditch the projects which have proved to be worthless(like the single currency) but pours more and more money (our money)into them to try and make them work.

The EU is intent on keeping the status quo.....this is despite the fact that some of the members recognise that it cannot exist without some sweeping reforms.....and this is borne out by reports from the OECD(Organisation for Economic Co operation and Development).

I am going to have to seriously curtail my viewing of TV over the weekend.....all this guff on the EU is seriously damaging my health. I can feel my BP touching the ceiling right now.
I have attached a duster to it so that it can knock the dust off the light fitting.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by jelly baby

Are mp's votes not confidential, as in an election?

I don't think they can be confidential. If you are campaigning to stay in the EU is is clear where your x is going to be placed....similarly if you campaign for the opposite.
Anyone(and ther are a few MP's) who looks at this deal and thinks we have gained anything, is wrong in the head.
After all the MEP 's can rip up all of these 'deals' if the UK votes to stay in.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they will do that.
So all that to-ing and fro-ing to Brussels that David Cameron has done is for nothing....we have actually got nowt...not only that we have irritated and put the hackles up of other members.
We'll be paying for that for a long time, believe me.

[JCB]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

I am going to have to seriously curtail my viewing of TV over the weekend.....all this guff on the EU is seriously damaging my health. I can feel my BP touching the ceiling right now.
I have attached a duster to it so that it can knock the dust off the light fitting.

I go along with that . I am just listening to Any Questions on Radio 4 .

One pro EU politician has said that our streets will be safer by staying in the EU .

One anti EU politician has said that if we leave the EU our taxes , prices and something else will all go down .

One pro EU politician has said that staying in the EU is better for our environment .

A millionaire donor to the Labour Party who is anti EU has said that the Labour Party is at fault in not specifying which issues are in need of renegotiation . But he is silent about which issues need renegotiating .

Is this the waffle we are going to have endure up to the referendum on June 23rd ?

I'm open to persuasion , but I would like some informative debate instead of what we are getting now .

[cashman]

How anyone can think this is a deal worth supporting,is totally beyond me.