Referendum is a load of crap.!!

[Margaret Pilkington]

David Cameron has just said that he believes that Britain will be better off in a'reformed' EU, but everything that has come to pass so far shows that the EU is not only reluctant to any kind of reform, it is resistant to reforming.now the difference in the words reluctant and resistant might be a bit subtle, but they are the nub of the issue.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by JCB

I go along with that . I am just listening to Any Questions on Radio 4.

Is this the waffle we are going to have endure up to the referendum on June 23rd ?

I'm open to persuasion , but I would like some informative debate instead of what we are getting now .

I have just seen the minister for transport telling us that he thinks the PM got a great deal in negotiations.
I am glad he doesn 't do my shopping as I fear he would not know a great deal from a hole in the road.
And yes, JCB....We are going to be fed this pap from now until the 23rd of June. It is going to seem like a long long time......and I can see me having to remove all heavy items from the vicinity of the TV screen...either that or find a dry cave somewhere.
We are going to be told all kind of fairy stories about what will befall us if we put our x in the NO box.....Because it is far easier for the politicians if we can be convinced to this view. Coming out of the EU will take some brainwork...for which some MP's seem to lack the appropriate tools.

[cashman]

Its much about looking after yerself if yer n MP. seems to me they lose and then become upon an E.U. position, this has occured wi many, can people not see this? the general public do not matter one jot to these people,

[Barrie Yates]

Whilst he may have an agreement of sorts it could all be rejected by any of the individual countries parliaments - after our referendum. Each country has, I believe, the power of veto.
In other words what he thinks he has gained could be rejected in it's entirety by any one of the other members of the EU so we would be in exactly the same position, if not a weakened one, that we have now.
I already know which way I shall be voting.

[Morecambe Ex Pat]

I was annoyed last night watching the BBC news where they cut from David Cameron's speech in Brussels, to a bimbo reporter, in Downing Street who hadn't a clue about any of the details but waffled for a good few minutes anyway. If it was the final of Strictly or a mind numbing awards ceremony, the program would have been extended and later programs would have been delayed.
We are told DC has made a deal but the devil is in the detail and merely saying that in-work benefits are to be phased in is nowhere near enough information for me.
I wrote to our MP (CON) asking if the same level of benefits would be paid to me if I was a migrant in any of the other member states. His response was to quote some bull**** EU directive about it being illegal to discriminate against a citizen of another member state.
A migrant worker being able to claim child benefit for children who do not even live in this country absolutely beggars belief and the fact that we have to renegotiate such matters with a bunch of greedy bureaucrats proves just how much of our sovereignty we have given away to the faceless wonders of Europe.

For a union of any sort to work it has to be a level playing field for all. The vastly different levels of taxation, subsidies and benefits proves that we are very much at a disadvantage.

As for negotiating a better deal, they can't even negotiate a deal with Wales and Scotland where we are all on a level playing field.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by Barrie Yates

Whilst he may have an agreement of sorts it could all be rejected by any of the individual countries parliaments - after our referendum. Each country has, I believe, the power of veto.
In other words what he thinks he has gained could be rejected in it's entirety by any one of the other members of the EU so we would be in exactly the same position, if not a weakened one, that we have now.
I already know which way I shall be voting.

Barrie, you are right and I have pointed this out in a number of posts.
In essence he went out and came back with nothing but horse feathers.

If the British public swallow this as a deal, then they are far dafter than I took them for.
We have gained nothing and in the process, I believe we have alienated other members.....and this veto would be their idea of 'socking it to us'
No....let's get the hell out of there.

[DaveinGermany]

Originally Posted by Barrie Yates

Each country has, I believe, the power of veto.

In other words what he thinks he has gained could be rejected in it's entirety by any one of the other members of the EU

Exactly! And that is why an exit from the EU is the only feasible way the UK & her populace can be self defining & regain self governance.

[JCB]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

David Cameron has just said that he believes that Britain will be better off in a'reformed' EU,

I lost count of the number of times he used the words "Reformed Europe" .

That's going to be the mantra for the next 4 months .

We aren't part of Europe anymore ......we are now in Reformed Europe .

That's going to be the level of debate ......soundbites......no substance .

I just want to know where I can get some information so that I can make an informed decision .

The radio and TV just present the politicians , and I learn nothing from them .

The newspapers just tell me how I should vote , so that's no help .

[cashman]

Just use common sense mate, many differing views why even bother? they will just tell yeh what yeh want to hear depending on their viewpoint, anyone can see hes come back wi sod all.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by JCB

I lost count of the number of times he used the words "Reformed Europe" .

That's going to be the mantra for the next 4 months .

We aren't part of Europe anymore ......we are now in Reformed Europe .

That's going to be the level of debate ......soundbites......no substance .

I just want to know where I can get some information so that I can make an informed decision .

The radio and TV just present the politicians , and I learn nothing from them .

The newspapers just tell me how I should vote , so that's no help .

I think you have to take information from a variety of sources and accept that ALL of it will be biased towards one side or the other.....then you have to try and see through the myths(like the one used by Jeremy Corbyn about most of our trade coming from the EU)....you have to try and research facts from organisations that are(or puport to be)independent.
This is a lot to ask of the general public, and very very many of them will find it difficult to plough through the bumf and cut to digestible facts.....but that is what is needed.
You cannot depend on politicians or media sources to do this job without bias....it is not possible for them to be unbiased.
Most people will go with their gut feelings.....and I think that many people will distrust what the politicians tell them.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

Get the biggest spoon you can find & keep gagging it down! As that's the way it'll be (but without the light sprinkling of sugar on top) if the UK votes to stay in the EU.

Brings to mind something that a Tory MP said ... forget who it was and not energetic enough to find out ... about Cameron's "polishing the poo". I assume that's the stuff you are talking about. The deal is getting some coverage over here; but not as much as the S. Carolina Primary ... for obvious reasons. But one Canadian reporter based in London, Nahla Ayed, came up with this: "In the certain absence of [fundamental change in the EU] members of the Britain Stronger In campaign are likely going to have to put Cameron's feeble deal aside and focus on why things are better under the status quo." Italics are mine. If that's the case, I don't see much point in a four-month campaign.

[Margaret Pilkington]

It doesn't matter how many rose petals you put on a pile of manure...It is still manure, it still stinks and you don't want it shoved under your nose.
That is what this deal(if you can call it that without being done under the trade description act) is.....manure!

[Margaret Pilkington]

The EU referendum reminds me very much of the last verse of The Eagles song....
Hotel California.
It goes something like this....
The last thing I remember was running for the door.
I had to find the way back to the place I was before
'Relax' said the night man
'We are programmed to receive
You can check out any time you like,
But you can never leave'.

That, in truth, is what the members of the EU are saying to us.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

It doesn't matter how many rose petals you put on a pile of manure...It is still manure, it still stinks and you don't want it shoved under your nose.
That is what this deal(if you can call it that without being done under the trade description act) is.....manure!

Kinda like Weapons of Mass Destruction, eh ... As far as I can see, or read, (and I do like to keep myself informed about what's going on in the world) there is no deal that will fundamentally alter the status quo. The "Deal" is necessary. Cameron knows he can't sell the status quo, just as Blair couldn't sell the Iraq War as something Bush wanted to do just for the hell of it. What was needed by those who want to stay in was a smoke screen ... burning shiite; the mind boggles and the tummy churns. As far as I can see, that's what this deal is. Added bonus for Cameron is that folks will debate the deal as if it were real. This will deflect attention from the fundamental issue, Britain's survival as a sovereign state.

Cameron truly deserves The Dorwin Award.

Watchman's Words: The Dorwin Award

[Margaret Pilkington]

Eric, I had not heard of these awards.
I reckon that David Cameron is a candidate.
Yes, people will debate the deal as if it were something real rather than the steam from the pile of manure that it is.
Thank you Eric, for again, furthering my education.