Referendum is a load of crap.!!

[Less]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Oh Less, I laughed so much the tears ran down my legs (ok...TMI).

Well, all those stories that we would make nothing of ourselves if we voted to leave have turned out to be false and even some of those who were using these scare tactics are now admitting that they were wrong.
They were wrong because NO ONE could predict how things would pan out because we had never done anything on similar lines before.
Iceland has, they have not sunk without a trace.
We have to believe that we can prosper.
Confidence and self belief are very important in how we are seen by the rest of the world(which is why every politician should get behind the government...a United front is essential to beat those bustards in the EU).

1/ Not too much information if we move this to the over 18 section.
2/ Scare tactics are used to shift proper thinking people into doubt by panic, tactics used by the weak, lying, in it for themselves brigade.
3/The only time we as a Country had doubt's was just after Dunkirk when we were left alone against the Nazis.
4/ Wake up people the Nazis are back, whom do you think are running the EU?

[Morecambe Ex Pat]

I was having a discussion with some Remoaners and I was asked why I wanted to leave. As part of that conversation I said "We don't want to stop trading with them we just want stop them trying to rule us.",
One of them responded with a question to which I could not think of a decent answer,
"Can you think of an example of them trying to rule us?"

The only thing I could think of was the higher levels of in work benefits in the UK than there are in other EU countries but it was a bit feeble.

[monkey hanger]

Originally Posted by Morecambe Ex Pat

I was having a discussion with some Remoaners and I was asked why I wanted to leave. As part of that conversation I said "We don't want to stop trading with them we just want stop them trying to rule us.",
One of them responded with a question to which I could not think of a decent answer,
"Can you think of an example of them trying to rule us?"

The only thing I could think of was the higher levels of in work benefits in the UK than there are in other EU countries but it was a bit feeble.

try agriculture, fisheries loss of commonwealth markets, death of heavy industry, car, wagon bus manufacture. even our new trains come from europe. laws on everything, court of human rights. all happened since joining the common market and then the EU. many more things that you actually forget about as so much rubbish has come out of europe. what have we got out of it a horrible drink called cheap wine and garlic.

[Morecambe Ex Pat]

I don't see any of those things happening as a result of EU rules as most are down to it being easier to access external markets where working conditions are much lower than our own.

When you say 'Laws on Everything', I was asked about specific things, none of which I could think of, rather than just a sweeping statement without any examples.

[Margaret Pilkington]

They have imposed a raft of restrictions...the working time directive is one of them.
They have taken away borders ...this reduces a country's ability to maintain an adequate level of security(and while we are not part of the Schengen zone it still has an impact)
People from the EU have moved here and taken jobs at lower pay..This then depresses the job market and wages for the people who were born here.
There is the impact of this freedom of movement on housing and other infrastructure.
They claim benefits for children who do not even live here...they send this monies back to the home country which benefits their economy rather than ours.
( you may tell me that this not their fault...that they are doing nothing illegal...and you are right...but in the country that the money is going to, it will buy more than it does here,again, not their fault)

They have told us that we cannot sell certain types of apple, bent banana's, curved cucumbers. This might sound like a silly thing to bring up, but it does affect all of us

The common agriculture and fisheries policies did have an impact on these areas...they told fishermen that certain types of catch were unacceptable which meant that fish already netted could not be sold...even though from a taste and consumer point of view, were acceptable...all that rich protein that could feed us, was wasted.
They restrict who we can trade with...this is to protect their markets.
And while we did not join the single currency(thank the Lord) they want full financial control...and yet they have not passed an audit of THEIR finances for more than two decades.
It is not always about what they HAVE done, but more about what their intentions are.
They tell us which light bulbs we can use, they are right now working on banning higher powered vacuum cleaners. This will not limit the use of power, it will just mean it takes longer to hoover up the dust.

The creeping politicisation, the fact that what was signed as a trading agreement morphed into something restrictive and controlling.
All this without any of the electorate being given a say in the matter.
I do not want legislation to come from Brussels, formulated by people who do not have the UK's interests at heart, who are unaccountable and whom we cannot remove.

I could go on...I am not sure if these reasons are specific enough to satisfy your questioners.
Personally I would be asking them, in the light of how the EU mandarins have acted and the way they have spoken about us as a sovereign nation, why on earth do they want to stay.
Though I admit that their answers might just have fallen into my deaf ear.

If by some means we DO actually get out. I have a bottle of Vintage Fizz (Dom Perignon) that will be cracked open to celebrate.

[Margaret Pilkington]

The fact that it is undemocratic(yes we do vote for MEP's, but their influence is that of a gnat bit on the hide of an elephant...not one single vote has gone in favour of the U K's favour in all the years we have been a member) unyielding, wasteful money gobbling should be reason enough.

Does it show that I really HATE the EU?

[Morecambe Ex Pat]

I wouldn't guess from your remarks that you had a view either way

It was a reply to his specific question that had me scratching round for a convincing answer. In my view the idea of a common market is a wonderful thing but the problem is, give politicians a wonderful thing and they will gift wrap it in so much pretty red tape that the whole thing becomes unworkable. We deal with the social care sector a lot and the amount of BS and hurdles they try to baffle us with is incredible.

[Exile on Spencer St]

Originally Posted by Morecambe Ex Pat

When you say 'Laws on Everything', I was asked about specific things, none of which I could think of, rather than just a sweeping statement without any examples.

The question of law is fundamental to why I voted to leave and, though I'm not a lawyer (I do have my standards) the simplest way I've had it explained to me is as follows.
In Great Britain, we have always had "common law". This has been built up over a thousand+ years of a relatively homogenous society, albeit one that hasn't been free of conflict. It derives from kings, judges, and eventually juries considering individual cases, disputes between real people based on the way real people behave, using 'common sense' which then, over time, come to be used as precedents to all cases.
Across much of Europe, they have codified laws (e.g. Napoleonic code) whereby laws are written down by rulers, in the abstract, and are based on how people 'should' behave. They are then applied, regardless of individual circumstances.

I've heard said that the difference between Britain and, for example, Germany is that, in Britain, we can do anything we want unless it is expressly against the law. In Germany, you cannot do anything that is not permitted by the law. Unless the state expressly allows it as your right, it's against the law.
Probably a simplified example but, if basically true, that's a subtle but significant difference in the approach to law and citizens' freedoms.

[Margaret Pilkington]

So glad that my bias did not come across too strongly.
My view of the politicians in the EU is that they are bigger charlatans than our lot...greedy, self serving, duplcitous bustards.
The EU was a social experiment that was never going to work as a political entity.
The single currency has been disastrous for the nations which rely on tourism for their finances. Even the man who formulated the idea of the single currency has come to that conclusion. How can a Euro in Germany be worth the same as one in Greece. The standard of living in those two countries could not be more different.
The EU has never had a level playing field...and as I said not one single thing that we voted on has gone in our favour( I think it is something to do with the number of votes each country is allowed goes on the population...or something like that)
The EU has created such divisions of wealth....if you had gone out to try and do the same thing you could not have made a better job of it

[Morecambe Ex Pat]

I agree with much of what is being said here but we are still looking at generalities instead of any specific examples. The common answer given by pro EU fanatics is that we have the power of veto and if we don't like a ruling, we can just veto it. I am sure our EU chums would have been our bestest friends ever if we had vetoed everything we didn''t agree with so our so called representatives just went with the flow.

Greece were fine on their own before joining the EU, their country was a tourist destination of worth, a bit basic in parts but a great place to visit and mix with the locals. Once the EU got a say in their affairs, it was all about austerity and it made the Greeks very angry.

I have friends who live in Southern Italy and the crime rate has gone through the roof in the past few years and the refugees are the main cause of problems. They say for every boat load of desperate refugees who are rescued in a blaze of humanitarian glory, there are 2 which land quietly at night and their cargoes slip quietly ashore unnoticed. It is things like this which will either undermine the whole of the EU or result in civil war.

[Margaret Pilkington]

The problem with the Greeks was that avoiding taxes was a national sport and people could retire with a pension from 55...but if when the finances went south, the EU had taken them out of the single currency, they would have been able to revert to the Drachma and devalue their currency.
This would have had tourists flocking in...and it would have been easier to get the finances back on track.
But No, the EU parachuted a technocrat government in and imposed punitive austerity measures.
This creates resentment and animosity.

I think I gave you a few specific reasons why the EU is not good for us.
Common Agricultural policy, the fishery issues, the working time directive etc.
The free movement of EU nationals was also another specific reason, jobs, houses, benefits, these are all specific.

[Morecambe Ex Pat]

I didn't really ask for reasons why the EU isn't good for us, I am well aware of those which is why I am happy to make my declaration as a leaver.

I always try to be objective when I read arguments both for and against leaving but I see statements from both side which don't help their individual causes.

I hear the romoaners spouting about how it is all going to end in a mess but they only rely on the experts who dragged us into a banking crisis which they didn't see coming, and all those predicters who got the result of the referendum, general election and the predicted price of cod heads at Grimsby very wrong indeed.

The leave group are not totally without criticism as some of their arguments make me cringe. All this shouting about Johnny foreigner coming over here and stealing our jobs, women and ferrets does not help the cause one bit.

The original remoaners make up most of the government so we need to be so careful with our analysis of what they promise us because the old tale of the wolf in sheep's clothing should never be far from our thoughts.

[Margaret Pilkington]

As you so rightly point out those 'experts' who predicted that everything would fall apart were wrong.
These highly educated people failed to see the financial crisis coming and we have had interest rates at a pitiable level for a decade.
Those who saved for their retirement have actually lost money.(and I know this is nothing to do with the EU...but it has everything to do with these self proclaimed experts)

I just feel that we were bamboozled (in respect of the EU)by the politicians over the years.
They led us into what was the EEC, and this became something we did NOT sign up to...and I don't know about you, but I hate to feel duped.
There was nothing at all we could do about it because we were never consulted.
I think that this was a calculated thing, as I am sure the politicians knew that many of us were uncomfortable with this state of affairs.
The EU wanted to become the Federal state of Europe...now,I do not want to be part of that.
I want our laws to be made in Parliament by people who have been democratically elected...and who can be accountable and removed by democratic process if they do not fulfil their obligations.

As for the Johnny Foreigner angle...this country has always extended a welcome, but when this means that the jobs, the wages are affected, then the welcome becomes a bit thin.

[cashman]

As far as i'm concerned immigrants have always been welcome, albeit, providing they are prepared to integrate and live by the law of the land. i dont think thats unreasonable by any means.

[DaveinGermany]

Originally Posted by Morecambe Ex Pat

"Can you think of an example of them trying to rule us?"

The enforcement of renewables - Obesity is a disability? - Weights & measures - Fisheries & agriculture policies to name a few, spend a bit of time "Goggling" for more precise examples, but this just gives you somewhere to look.

Originally Posted by Morecambe Ex Pat

The common answer given by pro EU fanatics is that we have the power of veto and if we don't like a ruling, we can just veto it. .

Ah the veto, that old chestnut! How often have countries opposed something put forward by the numpties, only to be ignored, overruled or simply disregarded? Migrant quotas objections from the Visegrad 4 - overruled or the Dutch not agreeing to the Ukraine being allowed visa free travel - disregarded then going back a while Ireland & Denmark being told to "Vote again" because the right outcome wasn't achieved.