Robin Hood Has Changed Sides

[West Ender]

Originally Posted by jambutty

It has been reported today that ONE MILLION people were overcharged for Income Tax entwisi. I wouldn’t want such incompetent department delving into my bank account.

Yes, I think HMRC is becoming more incompetent since the staffing reductions on Government orders. There just isn't enough experienced staff left to do the job efficiently.

[entwisi]

Originally Posted by jambutty

It has been reported today that ONE MILLION people were overcharged for Income Tax entwisi. I wouldn’t want such incompetent department delving into my bank account. In the event of an overdraw it is the account holder who has to go to the time, trouble and expense to get it put right. The law should also be fair and giving the Inland Revenue the automatic power to take unpaid taxes direct out of an account is a long way from fair, even it appears to be justified.

We aren't talking about the calculation here, we are talking about them taking money that they have asked for a number of times and has not been paid. This will save millions in court fees. If you do not believe your bill is correct you can appeal, at no point will the money be taken until this appeal is heard and you have refused to pay it. Only when it gets to the point where they would currently take you to court would this law kick in.

Seeing as your comments were directed at me, how else could I have taken them?

No they were NOT directed at you. As you are someone who often points out semantics of peoples posts I suggest you re read it properly.

Many a small business has gone down the pan because of delays over and above the normal 30 days from the big boys.

Agreeing me on that one then....

Do look up the meaning of the word.[/SIZE][/FONT]

I don't need to thanks, I have a half decent grasp of the English language

Control of people and the application of law and order go hand in glove.

in differing levels of application. It's perfectly possible to have law and order without excessive control of the people. what you suggest is that we all live in dictatorships because we have law.

Certainly Neil. A Standing Order is under the control of the account holder and is for a fixed amount. DD can be for varied amounts and for regular monthly/quarterly payments they do not inform you in writing each month/quarter. Regarding the DD for variable amounts, you may be informed in writing but my experience has been that by the time that I got the letter the money had already been withdrawn. In the event of an overdraw it is the account holder who has to go to the time, trouble and expense to get it put right.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Once again you talk about a subject and do nothing but spread misinformation.

DD's are variable but the company MUST inform you in advance of the amount. e.g. my mobile bill arrives 2 weeks before the DD is taken, this statement is sufficient to comply and gives me notice to ensure sufficient funds are in place. If a DD is taken before you receive the letter it is compulsory that the Bank refund you immediately and any charges you have incurred as a result of THAT incorrect DD(i.e. if you were already overdrawn or would go so by another payment then the charges are still applicable)

You may be happy to allow someone to help themselves to the money in your account. I am not and I reserve the right to voice my view on the issue.[/SIZE][/FONT]

And I will happily defend your right to voice to but when you talk bobbins I have the exact same right to point it out.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by jambutty

You may be happy to allow someone to help themselves to the money in your account. I am not and I reserve the right to voice my view on the issue.

You would like it if you lived in Spain, the utility companies/council tax equivalent ect just take the money from your account without telling you first

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Neil

You would like it if you lived in Spain, the utility companies/council tax equivalent ect just take the money from your account without telling you first

thats true,once you have set a DD up that way. thats what ive done.my bill normally arrives a week or so after ive paid it.

[Stanaccy]

The fact is these are people who have steadfastly refused to pay their taxes.

Now assuming they aren't the mountain men of Montana, they have a statutory obligation to pay their taxes just like everyone else.

Because of their refusal my taxes are higher. The odds are these are either people earning a lot more than me, (therefore subject to self assessment) or self employed.

I assume that HMRC can only take the money if it is there?

Therefore they have the money and are refusing to pay it. Now if by HMRC taking the money direct (just like a paye system) saves everyone else money I am a bit lost as to why this is so wrong?

[entwisi]

because Jambutty wouldn't be able to argue if his post wasn't so full of inaccuracies

[garinda]

I'd be more angry if people who had refused to pay their taxes, weren't having it taken off them at source, in this case their bank account, by the people from the Inland Revenue.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Yeah, me too.

[steeljack]

Sorry, but fail to see how people who are no longer making contributions to the revenue system can have any opinion about it

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by Neil

You would like it if you lived in Spain, the utility companies/council tax equivalent ect just take the money from your account without telling you first

Now that is a misleading statement if ever there was one. But then it is what I have come to expect from some members. They twist the facts to suit their argument.

As cashman has pointed out the Spanish authorities do not just take money out of an account. The account holder has to set up a DD first.

[jambutty]

Only when it gets to the point where they would currently take you to court would this law kick in.

It’s comforting to know that you are privy to a new law that MIGHT be brought in entwisi. The government is currently only CONSIDERING this Draconian law.

It's perfectly possible to have law and order without excessive control of the people.

Having a law that allows a government department the authority to take money from a citizen’s bank account without due process of presenting proof of the debt in a court of law is EXCESSIVE CONTROL.

what you suggest is that we all live in dictatorships because we have law.

If the best that you can do is to put words into my mouth to support your argument then your case is lost.

Once again you talk about a subject and do nothing but spread misinformation.

What misinformation is that?

DD’s can also be for a fixed amount for a fixed period and in those cases the account holder is not informed when a withdrawal is made. It just happens on the due date or if the due date happens to be a weekend or a bank holiday the withdrawal SHOULD be made on the first working day after the due date.

Now if you want to carry on splitting hairs, be my guest. I’ve said my piece and stand by what I stated. It is wrong for the government to take money from a citizen’s account without the account holder’s authority or without due process in a court of law to establish beyond the balance of probabilities that the debt exists and has not been settled.

[Royboy39]

Originally Posted by steeljack

Sorry, but fail to see how people who are no longer making contributions to the revenue system can have any opinion about it

I dont know what the system is on the other side of the pond but here you remain 'on the books' even if you are a pensioner.
If a pensioner has a certain amount of money, he or she pays tax.
You can never give up on opinions you may be involved whatever age you are.

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by steeljack

Sorry, but fail to see how people who are no longer making contributions to the revenue system can have any opinion about it

So by your reckoning if someone does not have any involvement in anything they should not have an opinion about it? Interesting if flawed reasoning.

However every single person living in the UK does make contributions to the revenue system simply by buying goods and services. Most items have Value Added Tax added to them and for those that do not incur VAT there is VAT on the manufacturing and transportation costs.

So even by your reckoning every single person in the UK is entitled to spout their piece about the revenue system.

[West Ender]

Originally Posted by jambutty

It is wrong for the government to take money from a citizen’s account without the account holder’s authority or without due process in a court of law to establish beyond the balance of probabilities that the debt exists and has not been settled.

Repeating what I said in an earlier post, no legal or distraint proceedings are ever put in place without giving the taxpayer ample opportunity to pay the debt. There is plenty of scope for the debtor to appeal against the amount due though, with self assessment, you have completed a Return that says what you owe.

Similarly if you settle the debt it is immediately recorded. If for some reason you pay and it is not recorded there are ways of tracing where the money is. This happens just occasionally, for instance when people send payment with an incorrect reference number, and it is always traced. No proceedings continue while such a dispute is ongoing.

[Stanaccy]

Isn't the basic fact here these people who can but are unwilling to pay their income tax breaking the law?

Then they refuse to pay their fines and the tax due.

So by HMRC taking the money direct from their account they are paying their dues, (correct me if I am wrong here).

Why Jambutty are you disagreeing with something that is going to save HM government money AND make lawbreakers pay their debt to society?

(As I said in an earlier post I do assume HMRC cannot take money that isn't there)