Robin Hood Has Changed Sides

[garinda]

Perhaps people are afraid that this is only the first step, and that next they'll be going under people's mattresses.

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by Stanaccy

Isn't the basic fact here these people who can but are unwilling to pay their income tax breaking the law?

Then they refuse to pay their fines and the tax due.

So by HMRC taking the money direct from their account they are paying their dues, (correct me if I am wrong here).

Why Jambutty are you disagreeing with something that is going to save HM government money AND make lawbreakers pay their debt to society?

(As I said in an earlier post I do assume HMRC cannot take money that isn't there)

Yes and law breakers are tried in a court of law to prove their guilt before being punished.

[West Ender]

Paying what you owe is not punishment.

[Stanaccy]

Originally Posted by jambutty

Yes and law breakers are tried in a court of law to prove their guilt before being punished.

But this is not about whether they are guilty or not.

This is about HMRC having a right of collection direct from bank accounts from people who refuse to pay,(a bit akin to the council sending the bailiffs round for none payment of council tax.)

I think you will agree that whether they have paid or what there tax bill is does not have to be proven in a court of law

I see this as no different to them taking the tax I owe direct from my salary.

With regards to the fines etc then maybe they should go to court to prove guilt, however as the question will be "Have you paid your tax" and the answer is mainly going to be "no" I think the vast majority will cop to it before the court case.

Now where is the problem with people paying their taxes direct.

[jambutty]

You still don’t get it do you West Ender and Stanaccy?

No one not even the government has the right to take money from a citizen’s account without the citizen’s permission and agreement just because the citizen owes a government department money WITHOUT A COURT ORDER. If the government passes legislation to allow this to happen it will be the thin end of the Big Brother wedge. The next step could be withdrawing the money when IT IS DUE followed by Council Tax, Road Fund License, TV License to name just three.

Unless the law has been changed the Councils send in the Bailiffs but only AFTER APPLYING TO A COURT.

I think you will agree that whether they have paid or what there tax bill is does not have to be proven in a court of law

With regards to the fines etc then maybe they should go to court to prove guilt, however as the question will be "Have you paid your tax" and the answer is mainly going to be "no" I think the vast majority will cop to it before the court case.

The onus is on the prosecution to prove their case. A defendant is still assumed to be innocent until proven guilty.

Now where is the problem with people paying their taxes direct.

The problem as, I have explained already, taking the money out of a person’s account without their authority OR A COURT ORDER.

[entwisi]

lets face it Jambutty, There seems to be no-one else supporting your views so either a) we are all doomed or b) YOU ARE WRONG. Accept it and move on.

as other have said, the fact that they haven't paid is excactly the same reason that speed cameras are legal. The camera takes your picture and you are convicted of the crime. yes you can take it to court if you wish to challange it just like people who challange their tax bills will NOT have the money taken.

[West Ender]

HMRC sends in the bailiffs too though, actually, the "bailiff" is a Recovery officer, who has the power of Distraint. No court order is necessary for Distraint proceedings, the County Courts are used as an entirely different route to collecting outstanding tax.

Knowing the Recovery system as I do, it was my job for 11 years and I am still in HMRC though in another business stream, I have no qualms about this proposed legislation. I know the sort of circumstances in which it would be used and I don't see it as any more intrusive than the removal of goods to the value of the debt.

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by entwisi

lets face it Jambutty, There seems to be no-one else supporting your views so either a) we are all doomed or b) YOU ARE WRONG. Accept it and move on.

as other have said, the fact that they haven't paid is excactly the same reason that speed cameras are legal. The camera takes your picture and you are convicted of the crime. yes you can take it to court if you wish to challange it just like people who challange their tax bills will NOT have the money taken.

I don’t care that no one else contributing to this discussion holds the same view as I do. We are all entitled to hold whatever view we choose. My view is simply that no one has the right to remove money from my account without my permission or a court order and if the government passes a law to enable this to happen then it is a bad law and WRONG. If you are comfortable with the tax department helping themselves to the money in your account then bully for you.

Let me see if I have got this right entwisi. Because my view is different to yours and a couple of others it is wrong. It seems to me that you are suffering from delusions of grandeur although that is not too surprising for someone who describes himself as a ‘God’. The debate on Ceefax (BBC page 145) and Teletext (ITV1 page 328) is, so far, 100% against the proposal that tax dodgers will have the money taken from their account without a court order or their consent.

So accept it that I have as much right as anyone to have an opinion about an issue and move on.

What have speed cameras got to do with this issue? Oh! I get it. Muddying the waters because your case is so weak and the best that you can do is digress off topic to make your point. Let me remind you that if your get flashed by a speed camera you get ‘that’ letter and you either pay up or challenge it. YOU DO NOT GET MONEY TAKEN FROM YOUR BANK ACCOUNT TO PAY THE FINE even if you don’t pay the fine. You get a court summons. So your point is totally irrelevant to this discussion.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by entwisi

lets face it Jambutty, There seems to be no-one else supporting your views

well tough i am,theres a principal involved here,but you lot seem devoid of it.