Shame on you America

[SPUGGIE J]

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

Were you thinking of Canute perhaps?

Not sure not had enough coffee to kickstart the brain cell yet.

Canute tried to turn the tied back and failed so maybe I am thinking that this war on terror could bwe a loosing battle.

Still prefer Alfred and the burnt cakes though the cakes being Bushes fingers.

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by Bazf

Go to England with a Pakistani or Arab partner and see how your treated!!!!!

You're probably right, Bazf, it's just that yanks are a bit more in your face about it. Mind you, it didn't stop us going back quite a few times, including a holiday in New Orleans - a wonderful city. We stayed in the Lower Garden district (it was what is euphemistically described as an "inner city area", so it was cheap). Got to agree with Mr C., the folks are the nicest, friendliest people you could hope to meet, and I feel really sorry for 'em.

[LancYorkYankee]

Originally Posted by mani

only thing was some of these builders barely knew what a hammer was yet were chargin extortion. this thing happend in florida i do remmeber that.

Your right Mani, I believe it was 1993, hurricane Andrew, completely destryed the Homestead area south of Miami, Florida. I went down to survey the situation for my part of the Government (Agriculture Dept.).

Appreciate your thoughts John W.! As an American, I see the incredible waste of dollars being poured into New Orleans and cringe. Not that I don't want to help the people but, because of political pressures, Billions will end up being spent (with again millions lost to abuse) rebuilding. With the absolute best levy system possible, the Army Corps of Engineers have said they CANNOT hold against anything greater than a Cat 3. Hurricane. I believe Katrina was a cat 4 or 5. How dumb eh?

As far as Iraq taking dollars away from New Orleans: Folks, this is America, if we need more money, we print more money, all for the people of course. A Big CHIN CHIN CHIN!

Brian

[Billcat]

Originally Posted by JohnW

There have been millions of dollars poured into the New Orleans area over the past twenty years earmarked for levy improvements. Much of that money was spent on building marinas and casinos. Ask the mayor (a black man, incidentally) about that.

What is the point of making the same mistake twice? There is absolutely no sense in rebuilding any part of that city that is below sea level.

In that case, what is the point of rebuilding a city that is built on the San Andreas Fault? Or in Florida's hurricane alley? Even dear old London is at risk for tidal flooding, but that hardly argues for a cut-and-run strategy! While I do not agree with the logic of abandoning New Orleans, San Francisco, London, or large portions of Florida to natural disasters, there are plenty of places where there is an ongoing, fairly high risk of natural disaster.

As to the allegations that money had been diverted to "marinas and casisnos," I've heard that claim over and over from folks who are determined to defend George W. Repeated web searches have come up with exactly zero credible evidence to support that claim. Ceretainly, the New Orleans Levee Board has oversight of all aspects of the levees (not merely flood control, but the funding is not diverted flood control money and is accounted for seperately.

While there is plenty of blame for all concerned, especially FEMA's lame response to the disaster, factual evidence shows that during the years immediately prior to Katrina, federal funding of levee maintenance had been seriously cut. Levee systems require constant inspection and maintenance (just ask the Dutch), as they are continually under attack by the forces of nature.

Here is a link to a very interesting article that deals a bit more in the realm of factual evidence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levee_f...rleans%2C_2005

[LancYorkYankee]

Also wanted to say that I really take issue with the threads title. IMHO, I think something like: "Is This True?" or "Hard to Believe." or even maybe "shame on New Orleans, or Louisiana or the American Government,"

Ya see, I've had absolutely nothing to do with the situation. So why is it "Shame on America (read Americans)." I had the same feelings when the Sex Pistols came out with that dreadful song against the Queen. It's almost the same as saying Shame on England for never catching Jack the Ripper.

Just a thought from across the pond. Hate/love me for what I do or say not what I don't/can't do or say!

Brian

[Billcat]

Originally Posted by LancYorkYankee

I believe Katrina was a cat 4 or 5. How dumb eh?

While Katrina was a Category 5 storm at one point in time, it had diminished to Category 3 when it hit New Orleans. I have lots of kin in New Orleans (they had evacuated, their homes sustained relatively minor damage, and they have returned to the city), so I was following the weather reports pretty closely.

[talentedbutslow]

Originally Posted by LancYorkYankee

Also wanted to say that I really take issue with the threads title. IMHO, I think something like: "Is This True?" or "Hard to Believe." or even maybe "shame on New Orleans, or Louisiana or the American Government,"


Brian

It,s that title because that,s how it was posted in my room and I saw no reason to change it.....

[SPUGGIE J]

To Billcats point about the Dutch maybe their expertise in dealing with land below sea level can be sought after all they have centuries of experience in this. I am not saying they should go and do the job because of the difference in the problems but I am sure that the engineers can adapt it to their local situation to take a Cat 5 huricane. In these times of global change any experience in improving the defences is better than letting it happen again. It would be short term pain in the cost department but a long term gain in the same if it stops another disaster like Katrina. There are countries that have found solutions to natural disasters and they if asked could help. People should feel as safe as possible in their own homes were ever they live.

As for London there was a few weeks ago a program that showed what would happen if the barrier and everything else failed and is was somewhat scary. Better to act now than pay the price later.

[JohnW]

Let's not compare New Orleans to Holland. Almost the whole of the Netherlands is below sea level, they don't have an option but to have many dwellings on such land. New Orleans is one city and as most of it which was below sea level is now destroyed, what is the sense in rebuilding it on the same spot? We're talking about a few square miles here. There are very few houses, if any, in Florida built below sea level and modern houses here are built to withstand winds of Hurricane forces. Individuals can help that situation by adding storm shutters to their houses to safeguard the roof being blown off. Nothing is earthquake proof, but buildings in San Fransisco are certainly built to codes which make them earthquake resistant. What are you going to do with houses built below sea level when the levees break? Put a volvo outboard on the back of 'em and head up the Mississippi?

[Less]

Originally Posted by talentedbutslow

It,s that title because that,s how it was posted in my room and I saw no reason to change it.....

Well maybe that's because you're a cut and paste kind of guy? Let's take the pressure off the poor old Americans,
"These antipodians no original thoughts in the whole of their bodies! they come on here with their anti-monarchistic ways just to stir trouble between us and the other members of the colonies!".

[JohnW]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05329/612494.stm

In reply to Billcats remark about diverted funds. Here is a report from Anne Carns of the Wall Street Journal, a reasonably respectable publication. I would direct your attention, particularly, to paragraph four. But read the whole article, it is quite enlightening.

[Less]

Originally Posted by JohnW

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05329/612494.stm

In reply to Billcats remark about diverted funds. Here is a report from Anne Carns of the Wall Street Journal, a reasonably respectable publication. I would direct your attention, particularly, to paragraph four. But read the whole article, it is quite enlightening.

I'm sure they were a good group in their day but why did you do a link to them?

Ooop's sorry went for the wrong link!

[steeljack]

I think it should be explained a bit more clearly about who was responsible for the the chaos along the Gulf coast following Katrina , probably LancYorkYankee can explain it better than me but here goes.....Under the Federal system each State has primary responsibility for its own emergancy response, Katrina primarily hit three States (Louisianna,Mississippi and Alabama) and each State recieved advance warning that a big storm was on the way and to get ready , It was not FEMAs (the Feds/ George Bush's) job to evacuate anyone .
Imagine if a huge storm came down the North Sea and devastated eastern England, Holland, Denmark, Belgium and France .....each country/state would be responsible for its own citizens in the first instance , only later would the E U get involved and start supplying aid from the other EU states.
Each State in the US has its own Govt. and is responsible for its own tax revenue , some States have income tax others do not, some states have sales (VAT) tax others don't , (this is in addition to Federal taxes) how each State spends the money is decided locally , if a State spends its money on public saftey and emergancy response programs the citizens benefit , but if a State govt ,Louisianna for example is so inept and corrupt bad things happen , Louisiana and notably New Orleans have long been known to be corrupt , the police being paid a 1/3 of what an average cop earns in California ( you get what you pay for) , no wonder that 1/2 of them ran-away from their jobs
Did race play apart or was it the media which blew things out of proportion , I don't know , but I do know this, the folks in Mississippi and Alabama wern't out looting TV and liquor stores and robbing foriegn tourists who were seeking shelter in the superdome , I suggest if anyone wants to know how the fine citizens of New Orleans behave I suggest they check with the folks of Houston Tx. who have seen a 50% increase in all types of crime since the "refugees" hit town.

[JohnW]

Originally Posted by Less

I'm sure they were a good group in their day but why did you do a link to them?

Ooop's sorry went for the wrong link!

Because I'm the ****** on the drums with the fast receeding hairline. You should see it now!!

[Billcat]

Originally Posted by JohnW

....modern houses here are built to withstand winds of Hurricane forces. Individuals can help that situation by adding storm shutters to their houses to safeguard the roof being blown off. Nothing is earthquake proof, but buildings in San Fransisco are certainly built to codes which make them earthquake resistant....

If things are that fine in Florida and San Francisco, then how did the billions of dollars of damage done in those natural disasters come to pass?

Truth is, those buildings in Florida and San Francisco are built to withstand hurricanes and earthquakes of a given magnitude, just as the levees in New Orleans were built to a given level of protection.

If there is an objection to spending money to rebuild after one type of recurring natural disaster, then why not be consistent and avoid the expense of rebuilding after other types that also are likely to recur? If it is a waste of time and resource in one case, then it may well be in all these cases. I don't agree with that idea, because I think that it is worthwhile rebuilding Florida, San Francisco and, yes, New Orleans.