Should Graham Jones resign? 'labour group leader'

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by garinda

I don't think you're ever destined to be one of the great political orators of history.

Hardly a rousing argument, with clear, well defined bullet points, to make what you say easily understandable.

Have you ever thought you might be better suited for a career in medicine, because I think you've definitely cured my insomnia.

My apologies Rindi

I have failed to make council tax banding interesting in what must be the 10th explanation.

In my defence, I have just sat through 5 hours of student council which I can assure you is much, much worse.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

My apologies Rindi

I have failed to make council tax banding interesting in what must be the 10th explanation.

In my defence, I have just sat through 5 hours of student council which I can assure you is much, much worse.

Just a little tip from an old pro, we got your point on the first of your ten explanations,

[andrewb]

Rindi, why are people still questioning it then?

Anyway I don't think anyone is going to change their mind now. I've put out why I think the figures are inaccurate and hence why I think it was wrong of Labour to use it. Graham has decided not to respond to any of the questions so all we know is that he believes that Its in the Telegraph so it must be right.

I guess i'll end my partition in the discussion now. Thanks for having the debate with me people.

[Royboy39]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

My apologies Rindi

I have failed to make council tax banding interesting in what must be the 10th explanation.

In my defence, I have just sat through 5 hours of student council which I can assure you is much, much worse.

Take advice and back off....go to bed sleep well.....I'm sure that your tutor would be much more proud of his student if he knew when to concede that the debate is over.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

Rindi, why are people still questioning it then?

I think it's more bemusement than anything else, that you're still rattling on with it.

The only person questioning anyone is you, of Graham Jones.

It's been very clear from the off that you didn't agree with how the calculations, which named Hyndburn as having the most expensive council tax in the U.K., were worked out.

[Royboy39]

Originally Posted by garinda

I think it's more bemusement than anything else, that you're still rattling on with it.

The only person questioning anyone is you, of Graham Jones.

It's been very clear from the off that you didn't agree with how the calculations, which named Hyndburn as having the most expensive council tax in the U.K., were worked out.

Go ahead ding dong...stick the knife in, which is par for the course.
Let the thing lie....

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

I guess i'll end my partition in the discussion now. Thanks for having the debate with me people.

[BERNADETTE]

Originally Posted by Royboy39

Go ahead ding dong...stick the knife in, which is par for the course.
Let the thing lie....

What is your problem? Garinda is just being nice and you again are being nasty. Is it because Garinda has got you on ignore? You are just stirring things up

[cherokee]

Must say royboy your nastiness has come through a bit there .

Rindy really is trying to polite a situation between friends.

[Gayle]

Well I don't know about you all but I'm finding this thoroughly absorbing.

Originally Posted by Cyfr

No its not accurate just because they assessed them the same. Quite simply because every constituency has different numbers of band D housing. If a constituency has majority band D housing, you can assume the average wage will be that of somebody living in band D housing and therefore the telegraph figure will be much more representative. For those with majorities not in band D then it is simply not representative. It will make those with majority in housing below D seem expensive, and the reverse, make constituencies with the majority of housing above band D appear very cheap.

Cyfr, it is most certainly accurate because the figures are based it on are accurate. Now, whilst you may feel that using simply one band gives a skewed final analysis that does not mean that the figures that they have reached are not accurate or open to interpretation.

Also, you can assume that there are other councils in the country with a similar make up of housing. Therefore, if we were to compare direct like with like with councils of a similar standing then the figures are acceptable.

Originally Posted by Cyfr

No I haven't looked at every council in Britain. Although if you look at how expensive councils are on the basis of how much the resident has to pay not in relation to income, and hence not skewed by averages, Hyndburn certainly doesn't appear in the top 10 according to the LATEST telegraph article (that's this year not January 2007).

The relationship to income is irrelevant. It does not stop something from being more expensive or make it less expensive. If the cost of milk is 43p here and 22p elsewhere, it is irrelevant whether I can afford it or not as to how expensive it is. This would indicate to me that the latest figures from the Telegraph are not accurate.

Originally Posted by Cyfr

On the matter, since council tax has risen by only 45% less than half the rate the average council tax has increased, then the tax burden under the previous labour administration would have to have been HUGE.

You'll have to explain this bit again because I don't understand your point.

[Gayle]

So I've actually been forced to read the Daily Telegraph - look what you're making me do!

And I found this information about how the Telegraph had come by their figures.


Council Tax: Band D Council Tax data for the year 2008/9 has been analysed and a star has been awarded to local authorities who have the lowest total council tax charge (i.e. including all precepts) i.e. the least expensive 25 per cent. The council tax data has been provided by the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy (CIPFA) from the CIPFA Council Tax Demands and Precept Statistics.

Key measures:
Band D Council Tax for 2008/9
Increase in Band D Council Tax over the past year
Increase in Band D Council Tax over the last 10 years
The Council Tax Collection Rate - i.e. proportion of total council tax demands collected


So basically Cyfr - you're actually saying that not only is Graham Jones wrong for using the figures, the Telegraph is wrong for printing them and the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy is wrong for working out their figures in the first place.

That's a lot of people with a lot of experience that you're calling liers!

[jaysay]

This council tax thing has become very imotive, It appears Cllr Jones ain't going to answer Cyfr, Plus the fact of the matter is that if council tax HAS gone up by 45%, you've got to remember that in the same time span the share of the council tax set by Labour at county hall has risen by 95%, plus the fact that County account for over 80% of council tax raised. Right, now I'm going back to sleep

[Royboy39]

Nothing to say.............wrong button

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by Gayle

So I've actually been forced to read the Daily Telegraph - look what you're making me do!

And I found this information about how the Telegraph had come by their figures.


Council Tax: Band D Council Tax data for the year 2008/9 has been analysed and a star has been awarded to local authorities who have the lowest total council tax charge (i.e. including all precepts) i.e. the least expensive 25 per cent. The council tax data has been provided by the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy (CIPFA) from the CIPFA Council Tax Demands and Precept Statistics.

Key measures:
Band D Council Tax for 2008/9
Increase in Band D Council Tax over the past year
Increase in Band D Council Tax over the last 10 years
The Council Tax Collection Rate - i.e. proportion of total council tax demands collected


So basically Cyfr - you're actually saying that not only is Graham Jones wrong for using the figures, the Telegraph is wrong for printing them and the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy is wrong for working out their figures in the first place.

That's a lot of people with a lot of experience that you're calling liers!

I pm'ed you about the other one because I didn't think people cared to read anymore, but if they do still care your latest post world my debunk my whole argument. So here goes..

What you have copy and pasted has nothing to do with either of the two articles mentioned thus far.

• http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/...northwestC.xml which is used by the Labour leaflet. It has a comparison between average income of a constituency then compares it to band D council tax.
• Ten most expensive areas for council tax - Telegraph which just has a list of the ten most expensive based on actual cost and nothing more

The article you pasted puts Hyndburn as (out of 407):

• 36th (higher number means more expensive) most expensive - not most expensive as Labour claim and still includes county council which takes 80% of tax
• 86th (higher number means council tax increase is less) for council tax increase over last 10 years (this is including county council which has gone up in HUGE amounts compared to Conservative run council

I have no issue with these numbers, I'm not calling them liars at all. The issue I have is in the article comparing to income because it is simply not representative of the demographic and is just being used in the Labour leaflet to win votes.

[onlyme]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

I have no issue with these numbers, I'm not calling them liars at all. The issue I have is in the article comparing to income because it is simply not representative of the demographic and is just being used in the Labour leaflet to win votes.

It didnt work, can we move on now please?