"Silly Cow" Clr Britcliffe

[claytonender]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

How much do you pay in income tax alone per month? The average UK salary is 22k which is around £400 a month tax. The cost of insurance for a 29 year old non-smoker is £158 from that link.

Now average US salary is 18k which would mean they pay £225 in income tax a month. So £225 + £158 = £383

Not much difference really? Except we have to pay National Insurance, VAT (17.5% opposed to the 0% in US) and all the stealth taxes Labour like to crank up.

I think you are missing the point that the NHS is free at the point of use. There are many people in this country (of all ages), who would not be able to afford medical insurance, even if taxes were much lower, because of any medical conditions they have. Maybe, if you suffered from a chronic (and incurable) medical condition, you might have a different idea on the matter.

But how could I expect a Tory to even begin to understand that we all have a moral duty to protect the most vunerable in how society. I stand by my assertion that Torys are only interested in themselves.

If employers wanted people to have paid holidays - why have we had to enact legislation to increase holiday pay to include payment for bank holidays. My son in law, has to take bank holidays off (but was not allowed to use any of his 20 days holiday entitlement for these days), but it was not until Oct 2007 that he began to be paid for some of them. How would you like to have to provide for your family, when you only have 4 pays pay rather than 5.

I would be interested in how you feel in several year's time when you are in the 'real' world. Maybe you will have a different view by then, when you are out in the 'grown up' world.

[Lilly]

[quote=claytonender

I would be interested in how you feel in several year's time when you are in the 'real' world. Maybe you will have a different view by then, when you are out in the 'grown up' world.[/quote]

Why do you keep dismissing Cyfr's point of view and implying that he knows nothing because he's young?

He strikes me as an intelligent young man, I'm sure he will do very well.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by claytonender

I think you are missing the point that the NHS is free at the point of use. There are many people in this country (of all ages), who would not be able to afford medical insurance, even if taxes were much lower, because of any medical conditions they have. Maybe, if you suffered from a chronic (and incurable) medical condition, you might have a different idea on the matter.

But how could I expect a Tory to even begin to understand that we all have a moral duty to protect the most vunerable in how society. I stand by my assertion that Torys are only interested in themselves.

If employers wanted people to have paid holidays - why have we had to enact legislation to increase holiday pay to include payment for bank holidays. My son in law, has to take bank holidays off (but was not allowed to use any of his 20 days holiday entitlement for these days), but it was not until Oct 2007 that he began to be paid for some of them. How would you like to have to provide for your family, when you only have 4 pays pay rather than 5.

I would be interested in how you feel in several year's time when you are in the 'real' world. Maybe you will have a different view by then, when you are out in the 'grown up' world.

There are various ways to provide for those who can't afford insurance. Anyway, I never said I wanted private healthcare in Britain. I simply added up sums to backup the point Neil made earlier, the NHS is mismanaged.

I think the Conservatives do understand the vulnerable in society need protecting. I certainly do, and other Conservatives I've spoken to think likewise.

What exactly do you base your theory on, that the Tories are only interested in themselves? Who exactly are the Tories you speak of?

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Lilly

Why do you keep dismissing Cyfr's point of view and implying that he knows nothing because he's young?

He strikes me as an intelligent young man, I'm sure he will do very well.

my guess is because its true.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

There are various ways to provide for those who can't afford insurance. Anyway, I never said I wanted private healthcare in Britain. I simply added up sums to backup the point Neil made earlier, the NHS is mismanaged.

I think the Conservatives do understand the vulnerable in society need protecting. I certainly do, and other Conservatives I've spoken to think likewise.

What exactly do you base your theory on, that the Tories are only interested in themselves? Who exactly are the Tories you speak of?

Pre the Labour party, when we only had the Tories and the Liberals, those governing parties came up with an efficient, and cost effective, way to deal with those poor souls needing society's care and help....the workhouse.

I remember when the last Conservative government harked on about a return to 'Victorian values'.

Child prostitution, unsanitary housing, disease, no paid holidays, massive crime, and general poverty, for the vast majority of the population.

I don't know why it didn't catch on.

[g jones]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

There are various ways to provide for those who can't afford insurance. Anyway, I never said I wanted private healthcare in Britain. I simply added up sums to backup the point Neil made earlier, the NHS is mismanaged.

I think the Conservatives do understand the vulnerable in society need protecting. I certainly do, and other Conservatives I've spoken to think likewise.

What exactly do you base your theory on, that the Tories are only interested in themselves? Who exactly are the Tories you speak of?

Everyone in America does have Health Care Cover. It's a myth they don't. What people mean is full health insurance covered by private policy. 50million americans don't have private insurance but rely on medicare, the national health service for Americans. And it is a poor service that covers little. It is where our NHS will end up I believe if we let private health care enter our system.

It's that point which is missed in Conservative proposals. Once we have 2 classes of Health Care, we will open the floodgates year on year to a widening health care service gap. It is inevitable.

Lets be honest. The Blair Government has widened inequality despite promises to narrow the gap. Governments have ideals and don;t live up them. Jam tomorrow I think they call it. Blair may have helped the bottom 10% significantly, pensioner credits, more jobs, tax credits in general (a mess) but it has allowed the top 50% run away.

My criticism of my own government is it has continued the Tory philosophy that trickle down works. Let the rich get rich and and the poor will benefit.

It never works. It is why I would never vote Tory. We need a progressive taxation system like Scandanavia. We need strong legislation to protect families and communities (such as Post Office's eg) like in France. We need sometimes to say NO to market forces and YES to people power.

An example locally. Planning and Licensing laws favour business all the way. I would want local communities/area committees/neighbourhood boards or councils, to have the last say on off licences and pubs. That would be true democracy. Certain planning decisions, local communities given the right of veto. Let's make business work for people and not the own way around.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by g jones

Everyone in America does have Health Care Cover. It's a myth they don't. What people mean is full health insurance covered by private policy. 50million americans don't have private insurance but rely on medicare, the national health service for Americans. And it is a poor service that covers little. It is where our NHS will end up I believe if we let private health care enter our system.

It's that point which is missed in Conservative proposals. Once we have 2 classes of Health Care, we will open the floodgates year on year to a widening health care service gap. It is inevitable.

Lets be honest. The Blair Government has widened inequality despite promises to narrow the gap. Governments have ideals and don;t live up them. Jam tomorrow I think they call it. Blair may have helped the bottom 10% significantly, pensioner credits, more jobs, tax credits in general (a mess) but it has allowed the top 50% run away.

My criticism of my own government is it has continued the Tory philosophy that trickle down works. Let the rich get rich and and the poor will benefit.

It never works. It is why I would never vote Tory. We need a progressive taxation system like Scandanavia. We need strong legislation to protect families and communities (such as Post Office's eg) like in France. We need sometimes to say NO to market forces and YES to people power.

You just said trickle down doesn't work, and that Blair kept the Conservative ideas on it. Yet you also said Blair has improved the lives of those at the bottom financially. If that isn't using the market to distribute wealth what is?

As for Conservative NHS proposals, you seem to hint they want privatisation which isn't what they want at all. They want to keep the NHS, they want to stop Labours closures, they want to save communities, they want to save post offices, want more power to the individual, give them control over their own lives not run it for them. Are you sure you're in the right party, because Labour have done all they can over the last 10 years to eradicate personal freedom, raise taxes to finance their failed NHS policy of "pump as much money in, I'm sure it'll fix itself sooner or later", hinder Police performance with target after target, hinder NHS performance with target after target and completely ignore the bottom, the very foundations of the NHS, the staff. You think things were bad in the NHS in the 80's/90's? Go to Blackburn Royal Hospital and go ask the staff about their moral, because I'm telling you now, it might have been underfunded back then when our economy wasn't so good, but everyone I've spoken to preferred how it was run. Infact, somebody who has worked their 50 years as a nurse told me it has NEVER been so bad, may I remind you the NHS is only 60.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by g jones

Do you have to be a pillock every day of your life Jaysay???? I thought it interesting as it is sometimes too easy to knock the NHS.

Champagne Socialist, Red Robbo, Narcissist, Not a socialist, Loony Left, communist. What is it? An insult a month? You provide good entertainment value if nothing else.

Well it takes one to know one Jones, You make being a P****** into an art form and to be quite honest I actuall think you need to see an NHS doctor yourself, because anyone who has pathological hatred of people who hold a different political ethos than you, is not wired up right. I have been involved in politics since 1963 and in all that time I have only met two people who I detested both in poltical and ordinary life, and they were Goldsmith and Delaney. I use the same yard stick as I have always used about people, I take them as I find them. Although I have never met you, I think you could possibly be the third on my list, no not possibly, definitely

[yerself]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Well it takes one to know one Jones, You make being a P****** into an art form

You're wrong again jaysay. Councillor Jones is a champagne socialist pillock; ie hyphenated. The word before the hyphen being Prize.

[Acrylic-bob]

Originally Posted by Neil

You are missing the point Graham. I did not say the NHS was bad just that it is badly managed.

Here are some interesting maths for you.

Population of the UK is approx 60 million
NHS budget for 2008 is £90 billion

90 billion / 60 million = £1500 per year per person in the UK.

£1500 / 12 months = £125

A quote for me on that zip code game to $315.88 which according to Google is £159 per month.

I agree you would pay more in the States for your health care but £35 per month is not that much more is it? Just think of all the waiting around we do waiting to be seen by consultants and how late all our appointments often are (due to poor management)

These figures interested me so I did a bit of checking, according to the Office for National Statistics the number of people paying Income Tax in 2007 was 29.4 million.
The average, or median, earnings for the same year were £23,764.

£90billion divided by 29.4 million is £3,061 per tax-payer, per year, further divided by twelve is £255 per month.

But whichever way round you look at it the NHS is grossly inefficient and horrifically expensive and is in dire need of root and branch re-organisation. Merely chucking ever larger bundles of cash at it will not solve the endemic profligacy and waste and will not deliver a health care system that is responsive to the needs of it's users. It will not solve the "post-code lottery" differences in treatment and medication and it will not solve the problems inherent in an ageing customer base. Bigger is not always better, because along with the increase in infrastructure and staffing comes a consequent increase in the scale of problems and their solution. This is why it is proving so difficult to beat hospital acquired infections; large institutions respond more slowly than small ones.

[Neil]

I could give many examples of mismanagement.

I went to RBH for a cat scan appointment at 9.15am. I was the first appointment. I was there at 9.05am. At just after 9:10am several members of staff walked into the department and disappeared behind closed doors. At about 9.15am someone appeared explaining they were just warming up the machine which would take 15 minutes. I was seen at 9.30am. I was the first appointment and they started the day off 15 minutes late.

Its simply really, if it takes 15 minutes to get the machine ready and the first appointment is 9.15 then the staff should be switching the machine on a 9am.

That is just an example of the front line staff that many people like to say are under pain and over worked. They can't even start work on time.

[Gayle]

I wonder if a mod could split this thread - it does seem to have gone on a bit of a wander and a discussion of the NHS is nothing to do with silly name calling.

[Neil]

We might as well talk about the NHS Gayle.

When I suggested that one of Grahams Labour Councillors had been untruthfull towards me (which is just about on topic) he did not wish to question me on the matter.
He might only be interesting in pre election mud slinging at non Labour people.

I even gave him a lead in to tell us about his wonderful budget ideas, again he stayed quiet.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Neil

We might as well talk about the NHS Gayle.

When I suggested that one of Grahams Labour Councillors had been untruthfull towards me (which is just about on topic) he did not wish to question me on the matter.
He might only be interesting in pre election mud slinging at non Labour people.

I even gave him a lead in to tell us about his wonderful budget ideas, again he stayed quiet.

I supose we have to be thankful for small mercies Niel, saves me having to telling him to

[g jones]

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob

These figures interested me so I did a bit of checking, according to the Office for National Statistics the number of people paying Income Tax in 2007 was 29.4 million.
The average, or median, earnings for the same year were £23,764.

£90billion divided by 29.4 million is £3,061 per tax-payer, per year, further divided by twelve is £255 per month.

The figures have to be the number of patients it must oversee and total budget to figure a per person cost. The fact wealth people pay more through tax and some people pay less doesn't equate to the value of the whole system.

THe US system also costs more the more ill you are or the more old you are. Some people won;t even qualify for insurance. The NHS covers dental care and in some cases eye care. The US system, that is extra.