Sir! Would you like a milkshake?

[Eric]

Originally Posted by cashman

More than likely Eric, But who would be most likely to face prosecution? Thats exactly whats wrong wi the world today.

That's another thing I don't understand about "the world today" ... what happened to letting a couple of guys sort out any problems they have in the good old fashioned way. No cops; no charges; no problem Well, nothing that a few stitches can't fix.

Ah well, back to watching the baseball ... Cards are four up on the Nationals in the top of the fourth But no doubt you guys are all glued to the screen watching the action, and all you Nat fans are worried about the weakness in the bull pen.

[cashman]

Theres loads of our generation don't understand whats happening in world today eric, It defys logic to me.

[annesingleton]

I'm not saying I agree with what this young person did to his teacher. But if you decide to make a career for yourself working with young people this is the way things work:
Any professional working with young people may not use any form of physical restraint unless they are trained to restrain safely using recognised techniques. It should never be used by one professional in isolation.
Restraint can only be used as a last resort in order to protect either the young person or others from harm. It cannot be used as a punishment or in retaliation.
I fully understand the frustration and anger this teacher must have felt when faced with a disruptive pupil who had thrown milkshake over him. He would have been better dealing with the pupil by removing him from the scene and going through the correct channels, but I expected he reacted instinctively, which is an absolute no - no in such a situation.
The teacher would be fully aware of what he should and should not do when dealing with a disruptive pupil, and whilst I can see the situation from his point of view, his experience and professionalism should have led him to take a different course of action - he now faces the consequences of his own inappropriate behaviour.
And under no circumstances do I condone the actions of the pupil whose behaviour was completely unacceptable - but in this situation the teacher was a professional adult, the pupil was a child.
Some people may say that children and young people today lack discipline and respect and in a lot of ways I agree, but if such behaviour by teachers was allowed, a lot of vulnerable children and young people who deserve more would be at the mercy of professionals who would be free to treat them with aggression for the least misdemeanour.

[cashman]

Its the plain fact that all disciplinary methods have been removed that situations like this arise in my view, Thats why there is no respect fer teachers,no other reason.Whilst yer not saying you agree with the pupils action Anne, yer laying the blame at the wrong door, Which in my mind makes you one of those reasons were in situations like this.

[annesingleton]

Originally Posted by cashman

Its the plain fact that all disciplinary methods have been removed that situations like this arise in my view, Thats why there is no respect fer teachers,no other reason.Whilst yer not saying you agree with the pupils action Anne, yer laying the blame at the wrong door, Which in my mind makes you one of those reasons were in situations like this.

On a personal level I think the lad deserved what happened to him and probably more, and had the threat of the cane been present he most probably wouldn't have done what he did!
But on a professional level I know that's not an option and even though I think the teacher has snapped (with some justification) he must have known that he would have been likely to have been sacked for acting as he did. I'm not saying I agree with the way things are for people working with young people, but I was pointing out how it is, and the fact that all workers are aware of the rules which they should follow when using restraint.

[cashman]

Well with respect its people on a professional level, that should be banging the drum to get things changed, not siding with stupidity. Cos they will never listen to oiks.

[egg&chips]

Originally Posted by annesingleton

On a personal level I think the lad deserved what happened to him and probably more, and had the threat of the cane been present he most probably wouldn't have done what he did!
But on a professional level I know that's not an option and even though I think the teacher has snapped (with some justification) he must have known that he would have been likely to have been sacked for acting as he did. I'm not saying I agree with the way things are for people working with young people, but I was pointing out how it is, and the fact that all workers are aware of the rules which they should follow when using restraint.

Sad, but true

[Eric]

Originally Posted by annesingleton

On a personal level I think the lad deserved what happened to him and probably more, and had the threat of the cane been present he most probably wouldn't have done what he did!
But on a professional level I know that's not an option and even though I think the teacher has snapped (with some justification) he must have known that he would have been likely to have been sacked for acting as he did. I'm not saying I agree with the way things are for people working with young people, but I was pointing out how it is, and the fact that all workers are aware of the rules which they should follow when using restraint.

Maybe you could consider that there is only one level ... your 2 levels allow you to swallow your personal principles. I think it is on a level of personal principle that we should act.

[annesingleton]

Originally Posted by cashman

Well with respect its people on a professional level, that should be banging the drum to get things changed, not siding with stupidity. Cos they will never listen to oiks.

I don't personally know what the answer is to this one, I don't see the benefit of bringing back the cane, I think that corporal punishment is open to far too much abuse, but I do think there is too much blurring of the lines between pupil and teacher or other adult working with them generally, where they are seen as mates to be treated equally rather than with respect.

[Gordon Booth]

Originally Posted by egg&chips

Sad, but true

egg&chips, I'm guessing you are a teacher so you see things from the inside.
Can you tell us what teachers in general(not necessarily your own opinion) feel about the problems of discipline in schools? How would they like things to change? Are they restrained by rules they don't agree with?

I understand if you don't feel you can comment.

[Restless]

At Moorhead 89-94 we had an art teacher named Mr Williamson. He was a bully. The stories I have heard are horrendous. I posted on a forum about schools and read many things that he has done or accused of. He made boys kneel on pencils. Made boys kneel on hot pipes leading to radiator. Held a lads head in the slop bucket in the clay room several times.... list goes on.

My experience with him was this; He was shouting at me about my Art. I was scared and replied "I can't draw" he picked me up by my ear and twisted and and held it t and said something about talking back to him. Held it like that for well over a minute. Do I respect him? Do I hell. If I saw him now I don't know what I would do. I am not really a violent person. But thinking of him makes me angry and sad that a piece of garbage like him was a teacher.

There was many teachers at Moorhead that was stern and wouldn't take any crap; that I looked up to and respected and do still to this day.

On the other hand. For many lessons I was placed in a class with not so good kids. We had an English teacher Miss Elliot that asked a lad once to open to page10 and he said "f off ya b" and this would happen everytime. She would run out of the class crying. A few of the lads was like this. We ended up with a stand in teacher that made us copy text out of books.

One lad I read that he is now a heroin addict and is in prison. Go figure

[Eric]

Just finished reading "The Oxford Book of Schooldays" by Patricia Craig ... a good read. One critic, John Mortimer, commented: " ... a book essential to any true understanding of the English character." Perhaps the English character he is talking about is no longer with us.

I'll have to give that some thought ... I'm watching baseball ... bottom of the 8th, Cards leading 8 to zip ... and have just poured my fourth Bomber and fired up a joint ... this trend towards alcoholism and drug abuse I lay at the door of Mr. Butcher, art teacher, who had me copying out immense chunks of the "Listener" when I could have been out playing football. Go figure, eh

[shillelagh]

at what age does a child become an adult ....

[Eric]

Originally Posted by shillelagh

at what age does a child become an adult ....

Well, with me, it obviously ain't happened yet "Sometime soon" ain't lookin' all that good either

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by annesingleton

I'm not saying I agree with what this young person did to his teacher. But if you decide to make a career for yourself working with young people this is the way things work:
Any professional working with young people may not use any form of physical restraint unless they are trained to restrain safely using recognised techniques. It should never be used by one professional in isolation.
Restraint can only be used as a last resort in order to protect either the young person or others from harm. It cannot be used as a punishment or in retaliation.
I fully understand the frustration and anger this teacher must have felt when faced with a disruptive pupil who had thrown milkshake over him. He would have been better dealing with the pupil by removing him from the scene and going through the correct channels, but I expected he reacted instinctively, which is an absolute no - no in such a situation.
The teacher would be fully aware of what he should and should not do when dealing with a disruptive pupil, and whilst I can see the situation from his point of view, his experience and professionalism should have led him to take a different course of action - he now faces the consequences of his own inappropriate behaviour.
And under no circumstances do I condone the actions of the pupil whose behaviour was completely unacceptable - but in this situation the teacher was a professional adult, the pupil was a child.
Some people may say that children and young people today lack discipline and respect and in a lot of ways I agree, but if such behaviour by teachers was allowed, a lot of vulnerable children and young people who deserve more would be at the mercy of professionals who would be free to treat them with aggression for the least misdemeanour.

Straight from the Health and Social care handbook

A reasonable instinctive reaction although frowned upon should not lead to a sacking, a slap on the wrist, sent for further training perhaps, but most definitely not removal from the job. This is not how safeguarding legislation is meant to be used. (In fact if anyone is at fault it's the school, for not providing restraint training, or enough staff to cope with this kind of eventuality, because the pupil was attempting to cause harm. I'd love to see their risk assessment for dinner times in the canteen)

It's this kind of typical over-reaction by pen pushers who are not on the front lines, just like the school H&S pen pushers who ban conkers and marbles, which is not what Health and Safety legislation is about either.

It's not the legislation that's wrong, its the dipsticks who interpret it through the fear of coffin chasing solicitors and redtop rag headlines who are slowly leading us to anarchy.