Sir! Would you like a milkshake?

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by Guinness

Straight from the Health and Social care handbook

A reasonable instinctive reaction although frowned upon should not lead to a sacking, a slap on the wrist, sent for further training perhaps, but most definitely not removal from the job. This is not how safeguarding legislation is meant to be used. (In fact if anyone is at fault it's the school, for not providing restraint training, or enough staff to cope with this kind of eventuality, because the pupil was attempting to cause harm. I'd love to see their risk assessment for dinner times in the canteen)

It's this kind of typical over-reaction by pen pushers who are not on the front lines, just like the school H&S pen pushers who ban conkers and marbles, which is not what Health and Safety legislation is about either.

It's not the legislation that's wrong, its the dipsticks who interpret it through the fear of coffin chasing solicitors and redtop rag headlines who are slowly leading us to anarchy.

If Guinness was leading a political party, I'd vote for it! Karma sent.

[Chris SUI JURIS]

Originally Posted by Restless

At Moorhead 89-94 we had an art teacher named Mr Williamson. He was a bully. The stories I have heard are horrendous. I posted on a forum about schools and read many things that he has done or accused of. He made boys kneel on pencils. Made boys kneel on hot pipes leading to radiator. Held a lads head in the slop bucket in the clay room several times.... list goes on.

My experience with him was this; He was shouting at me about my Art. I was scared and replied "I can't draw" he picked me up by my ear and twisted and and held it t and said something about talking back to him. Held it like that for well over a minute. Do I respect him? Do I hell. If I saw him now I don't know what I would do. I am not really a violent person. But thinking of him makes me angry and sad that a piece of garbage like him was a teacher.

There was many teachers at Moorhead that was stern and wouldn't take any crap; that I looked up to and respected and do still to this day.

On the other hand. For many lessons I was placed in a class with not so good kids. We had an English teacher Miss Elliot that asked a lad once to open to page10 and he said "f off ya b" and this would happen everytime. She would run out of the class crying. A few of the lads was like this. We ended up with a stand in teacher that made us copy text out of books.

One lad I read that he is now a heroin addict and is in prison. Go figure

i remember Mr Williamson reminds me of lanky magnum pi lol i had a similar experiance when drawing that giant cheese plant(you know the1), he picked me up with both ears and stood me in the bin for back chatting he was also deadly with the old chalk duster as i remember.like you say There was many teachers at Moorhead that was stern and wouldn't take any crap Mc hale and green spring to mind but they was'nt a bully like magnum

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

If Guinness was leading a political party, I'd vote for it! Karma sent.

Yeh, he does have a point. As far as I remember, health and safety concerns started with the unions in the factories and pits of industrial Britain. An honourable genesis. Just seems like it got outa hand ... or some bureaucratic assholes with just too much free time on their hands etc., etc., etc.

[Restless]

Originally Posted by Chris SUI JURIS

magnum pi

yeah hehe. Thinking about it he did.

There was another art teacher. Woman with ginger hair. She was often seen with 'magnum' she was always horrible with me. "why is your work always horrible and disgusting" was one of the things she said to me. Why did they not understand that I am useless at drawing; hell I am useless at writing with a pen.

I think I get that from my mother. She said when she was at school she was caned for "not being able to write"

I think corporal punishment is abhorrent; I think its disgusting to have allowed anybody else other than the parents discipline a child in that manner. The lack of it isn't the reason why children do things like the milkshake incident. (IMHO) Perhaps teachers are just not prepared to deal with the children that today's broken homes produce.

It made way for people like Williamson to abuse children. When it was abolished teachers like him just couldn't let it go. I wish I had said something to my parents. But he scared me. Some will say that is good and that it made me 'respect him' Those two teachers remind me of MargaretR's "physic vampires"

Originally Posted by Chris SUI JURIS

Mc hale

Yeah. Teachers like McHale is the 100% reason why corporal punishment is non productive.

[egg&chips]

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

egg&chips, I'm guessing you are a teacher so you see things from the inside.
Can you tell us what teachers in general(not necessarily your own opinion) feel about the problems of discipline in schools? How would they like things to change? Are they restrained by rules they don't agree with?

I understand if you don't feel you can comment.

It is a tricky one and I wouldn't presume to speak for others in general, but would say that some definitely, and I suspect many, despair at the state of discipline in schools. However I don't think that it's just an issue in schools but is endemic in society, magnified in schools because of the concentration of disaffected youth there. Perhaps the factor that has changed most since I was at school and even since I started teaching about fourteen years I ago is the involvement and attitude of a growing number of parents. Too many abdicate responsibility for their kids or simply don't have the skills to parent them properly, a major factor in my school being the lack of a positive father figure in the home. I'm not saying that a return to the social stability of yesteryear's families would be a magic cure, but it wouldn't hurt. Family with five kids, three absentee fathers and a mum who is in her twenties and still acts like a seventeen year old = potential behaviour problems. Anyone who watched the 999 what's your emergency? programme re kids in Blackpool episode will know what I mean.
Changes? I wouldn't want a change back to corporal punishment, there are far too many flashpoint incidents where a physical response would be inappropriate and dangerous for all involved. I do find it objectionable that schools who choose to exclude children are penalised as a result however via OFSTED and local authority investigation / interference. It's a bit like a policeman managing to safely arrest detain and secure the conviction of a number of criminals who assaulted them being reprimanded for their actions and trained to modify their behaviour in order not to get attacked in future.
I'm afraid that one result of this increasingly distressing situation that only the most dedicated and self sacrificing of decent teachers will stay in schools where behaviour is a major issue. Such places face the prospect of becoming "sink" schools, especially when academies are allowed to select their intake and are not answerable to a local authority for many of their actions. I used to think that I was in the right place and was making a bit of a difference, but seeing more and more past pupils turning up in court for serious offences including murder makes me wonder if all I, and my colleagues are doing is shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic.
Going in now to see if there's any sense to be made of a fight between a non English speaking girl recently arrived as a war refugee (you should see her drawings) and an autistic child, after school, both of whose guardians did not materialise to ensure their safe journey from school to home. Whoop blinking ee.

[egg&chips]

Originally Posted by Restless

At Moorhead 89-94 we had an art teacher named Mr Williamson. He was a bully. The stories I have heard are horrendous. I posted on a forum about schools and read many things that he has done or accused of. He made boys kneel on pencils. Made boys kneel on hot pipes leading to radiator. Held a lads head in the slop bucket in the clay room several times.... list goes on.

My experience with him was this; He was shouting at me about my Art. I was scared and replied "I can't draw" he picked me up by my ear and twisted and and held it t and said something about talking back to him. Held it like that for well over a minute. Do I respect him? Do I hell. If I saw him now I don't know what I would do. I am not really a violent person. But thinking of him makes me angry and sad that a piece of garbage like him was a teacher.

Violent bully, I totally agree. Still get het up thinking of him belting me with a desk lid on the back of the head without warning because he took offence at my posture whilst reading during a break between mock o levels in 1978.

[cashman]

There are violent bullies in every walk of life,including teachers,to me weeding people like them out is a separate issue, n little to do wi kids having respect n discipline.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by egg&chips

......Such places face the prospect of becoming "sink" schools, especially when academies are allowed to select their intake and are not answerable to a local authority for many of their actions......

Not sure which academy you are talking about but maybe you should read the admission policy. I have posted it below from their website

Admissions Criteria - Year 7
The admissions limit at Accrington Academy is 180.
There the number of applications for admissions is greater than the published admissions number, applications will be considered against the criteria set out below. The criteria will be applied in the following order:
• Children who are ‘looked after’ under the provision of the Children Act 1989
• Children with significant specific medical, social or special educational needs supported by written specific professional advice
• Children with siblings at the Academy
• Children who live the nearest distance from the Academy
As with all other schools, students with a relevant statement of special educational need will be seen as a priority in terms of admission to the Academy.
If you would like to apply for a place in Year 7 at Accrington Academy, parents must complete the Common Application Form published by Lancashire County Council. Forms can be obtained from your child’s primary school or from the council offices. Applications should be returned to the address on the Common Application Form by the time stated. Parents will be notified in writing of the outcome of their application.

Here is a link to the full admissions details Applying to Accrington Academy | Accrington Academy | ULT

After reading that have a look where the school is and tell me if you still think they are cherry picking pupils.

If you want to talk about a local school and pupil selection then you should look at St Christophers. They do select the pupils they want based on church attendance though and not individual ability.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by egg&chips

However I don't think that it's just an issue in schools but is endemic in society, magnified in schools because of the concentration of disaffected youth there. Perhaps the factor that has changed most since I was at school and even since I started teaching about fourteen years I ago is the involvement and attitude of a growing number of parents. Too many abdicate responsibility for their kids or simply don't have the skills to parent them properly, a major factor in my school being the lack of a positive father figure in the home. I'm not saying that a return to the social stability of yesteryear's families would be a magic cure, but it wouldn't hurt. Family with five kids, three absentee fathers and a mum who is in her twenties and still acts like a seventeen year old = potential behaviour problems. Anyone who watched the 999 what's your emergency? programme re kids in Blackpool episode will know what I mean.

Interesting point of view.
I work with a chap who believes we are breading a generation of idiots. If you want to know what he means subject yourself to the daytime punishment TV called Jeremy Kyle and you will understand what he means.

His solution is that everyone should take an IQ test as they enter secondary school. Fail 3 times and your sterilized to prevent you breeding more idiots.

I think his views are a little extreme but if I watched enough Jeremy Kyle I could probably be persuaded to his way of thinking.

[kestrelx]

Originally Posted by annesingleton

I fully understand the frustration and anger this teacher must have felt when faced with a disruptive pupil who had thrown milkshake over him. He would have been better dealing with the pupil by removing him from the scene and going through the correct channels, but I expected he reacted instinctively, which is an absolute no - no in such a situation.
The teacher would be fully aware of what he should and should not do when dealing with a disruptive pupil, and whilst I can see the situation from his point of view, his experience and professionalism should have led him to take a different course of action - he now faces the consequences of his own inappropriate behaviour.
.

Anne you say that he would have been better dealing with the pupil by removing him from the room! But you also say that no teacher should be able to restrain a pupil without training - well how does one remove a pupil without making physical contact? So your contradicting yourself!

Also what about the human element - you get a milkshake thrown over you then possibly anticipated further attack - the response then is to protect yourself.

Also there was no complaint made by the pupil. This was all the doing of the school authorities.

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by kestrelx

Anne you say that he would have been better dealing with the pupil by removing him from the room! But you also say that no teacher should be able to restrain a pupil without training - well how does one remove a pupil without making physical contact? So your contradicting yourself!

Also what about the human element - you get a milkshake thrown over you then possibly anticipated further attack - the response then is to protect yourself.

Also there was no complaint made by the pupil. This was all the doing of the school authorities.

She is not contradicting herself at all. There is a difference between physical restraint and firmly guiding someone from a room. And she also stated that he reacted instictively.

Anne is simply paraphrasing guidelines, interpreted from a law, by a pen pusher, that people in schools, healthcare and even the police are supposed to follow.

As for the teachers, of whom in my opinion there are few...they have a poor system to work with, it's a 'give me a child at 7 and I'll turn him into an automaton' system full of curriculae and standards. This guy tells it like it is in a very amusing and watchable way.

[Gordon Booth]

Originally Posted by egg&chips

It is a tricky one and I wouldn't presume to speak for others in general, but would say that some definitely, and I suspect many, despair at the state of discipline in schools.

A thought provoking response, thanks egg&chips. You have made me think again about writing all teachers off as the same.
However, I do think teachers in general have brought this situation on themselves to an extent.
During and after WW2 our fathers were all away in the forces and many of our mothers were working. There were some really wild, uncontrolled kids about.
However- school was a different ballgame! Rules of behaviour applied and you broke them at your peril(although I never saw the terrible bullying listed above). The teachers dressed smartly, you called them 'sir' or 'Mr/Miss' and they called you by your surname. They weren't your friends, they were your teachers!
Now, if you go in a sixth form collage you can't tell the teachers from the students, they're all dress the same(as sloppily?) and on first name terms. How can the teachers expect to be treat with respect- they're just one of the gang. And teenagers are naturally testers of boundaries and won't let someone take over and set rules for their gang unless they recognise them as separate and dominant.
I couldn't do a teachers job now, I'd soon be in court. I don't see how teachers can ever retake control of their schools either.

[Studio25]

Originally Posted by Neil

...we are breading a generation of idiots...

Dare I say anything? Naaah...

[egg&chips]

Originally Posted by Neil

Not sure which academy you are talking about but maybe you should read the admission policy. I have posted it below from their website



Here is a link to the full admissions details Applying to Accrington Academy | Accrington Academy | ULT

After reading that have a look where the school is and tell me if you still think they are cherry picking pupils.

If you want to talk about a local school and pupil selection then you should look at St Christophers. They do select the pupils they want based on church attendance though and not individual ability.

This sounds like it is based on sound, principled, service based doctrines, as all such admission policies should be. I don't know the school, so cannot comment on how well the practice is carried out, but fully endorse its ethics

[egg&chips]

Originally Posted by Neil

Interesting point of view.
I work with a chap who believes we are breading a generation of idiots. If you want to know what he means subject yourself to the daytime punishment TV called Jeremy Kyle and you will understand what he means.

His solution is that everyone should take an IQ test as they enter secondary school. Fail 3 times and your sterilized to prevent you breeding more idiots.

I think his views are a little extreme but if I watched enough Jeremy Kyle I could probably be persuaded to his way of thinking.

I find it hard to argue with your friend's viewpoint, though I feel his solution may be difficult to swallow for even the most strident of Daily Fail readers. What I would add to his argument is that the idiot box also breeds a generation of isolated idiots who can watch tv tailored to their own preferences 24/7 in whatever language/ cultural or ethnic slot they feel most comfortable. Hence a dissociation from their majority peers for many of our minorities and an increase in misunderstandings, failure to comprehend and tension for a generation of kids who are becoming increasingly distanced not only from the generation in administration but from any kind of cohesive youth culture. No belonging too often means no empathy and no reason to respect concepts and ideologies inherent in society in general but totally alien to them.