Sir! Would you like a milkshake?

[annesingleton]

I'm afraid I'm turning into a bore here, but I really am passionate about achieving good outcomes for disadvantaged children who all deserve better than what they have. I see so many young people who have tremendous potential who have been let down by their life chances, who I would love to take home and nurture - unfortunately of course this is not possible.
This is why the teacher in question should be offering more than what he did to his disruptive pupil, he probably lived up - or down - to the young person's expectations of him and the response he would get from his behaviour generally, and reinforce the idea he had of what was expected of him.

[cashman]

Just cos its corporate line, don't make it right.

[egg&chips]

Originally Posted by annesingleton

I'm afraid I'm turning into a bore here, but I really am passionate about achieving good outcomes for disadvantaged children who all deserve better than what they have. I see so many young people who have tremendous potential who have been let down by their life chances, who I would love to take home and nurture - unfortunately of course this is not possible.
This is why the teacher in question should be offering more than what he did to his disruptive pupil, he probably lived up - or down - to the young person's expectations of him and the response he would get from his behaviour generally, and reinforce the idea he had of what was expected of him.

I fully empathise with your first paragraph Anne, but question whether anyone has the right to judge the actions of the teacher in question without knowing the full circumstances of the case.
After reading your previous posts, I suspect that you know as well as I do that you can work on building a relationship with some children for a long time and make remarkable advances through difficult circumstances only for all that effort to be undone by the actions of a third party in a few moments. We don't know exactly what happened and should maybe consider that before condemning said teacher for hat he did or did not offer?

[annesingleton]

Originally Posted by egg&chips

I fully empathise with your first paragraph Anne, but question whether anyone has the right to judge the actions of the teacher in question without knowing the full circumstances of the case.
After reading your previous posts, I suspect that you know as well as I do that you can work on building a relationship with some children for a long time and make remarkable advances through difficult circumstances only for all that effort to be undone by the actions of a third party in a few moments. We don't know exactly what happened and should maybe consider that before condemning said teacher for hat he did or did not offer?

Yes I fully agree with you, we don't know the full story, I started by trying to explain procedures and I wouldn't condemn the teacher involved who it seems was not able to manage the situation himself and needed assistance, and of course when you think about it, it only takes a second of bad decision making and losing control to wreck your career.

[Neil]

You assumed he is from a dysfunctional family when it could just be he is a bad kid. Anyone who throws a chair at someone in school should be excluded, permanently. The stupid idiot could have killed someone.

[annesingleton]

Originally Posted by Neil

You assumed he is from a dysfunctional family when it could just be he is a bad kid. Anyone who throws a chair at someone in school should be excluded, permanently. The stupid idiot could have killed someone.

Yes he should have been excluded but would have gone to a short stay school before going to a school for young people with behavioural problems, our local one is in Oswaldtwistle.

[Neil]

The story does not mention any punishment for the kid so I assume there was non.

[annesingleton]

I would think there would have been a consequence but we don't know, and it's also a case of whether the consequence would have made a positive difference to the young person's life and behaviour.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by annesingleton

Yes I fully agree with you, we don't know the full story, I started by trying to explain procedures and I wouldn't condemn the teacher involved who it seems was not able to manage the situation himself and needed assistance, and of course when you think about it, it only takes a second of bad decision making and losing control to wreck your career.

Oh come on, hon. A "second of bad ... career" ... Ok, if you are an airline pilot (Hi, BG) or a cardiac surgeon, or a burglar I can see it. But to wreck your career as a teacher, it should take more than what happened. If you waste half your class with a Glock, or, on a more serious note, cause significant emotional or psychological damage ... now, that should wreck a career. But this ... it's a mere storm in a milkshake.

Of course, there was the recent case of a teacher in Edmonton, Alberta who was fired for giving students zeros for missed assignments. Fortunately, he got a better job at a school which still believes that, while students can succeed by putting in some effort, failure is always an option.

[annesingleton]

Originally Posted by Eric

Oh come on, hon. A "second of bad ... career" ... Ok, if you are an airline pilot (Hi, BG) or a cardiac surgeon, or a burglar I can see it. But to wreck your career as a teacher, it should take more than what happened. If you waste half your class with a Glock, or, on a more serious note, cause significant emotional or psychological damage ... now, that should wreck a career. But this ... it's a mere storm in a milkshake.

Of course, there was the recent case of a teacher in Edmonton, Alberta who was fired for giving students zeros for missed assignments. Fortunately, he got a better job at a school which still believes that, while students can succeed by putting in some effort, failure is always an option.

I completely disagree with you, how do you know that by your behaviour in the position of authority as a teacher you are not having a devastating effect on peoples lives?
It is not a storm in a milkshake. Like I keep saying, I fully understand the frustration of the teacher - this was perhaps the trigger point to a long string of stuff - but the adult professional cannot behave in such a manner.
Think about the long history of child abuse cases - the most recent in the news being the Victoria Climbie case, the Baby P case and even more recently the sexual exploitation cases in Rochdale where professionals have turned a blind eye. What is the answer? You turn a blind eye to everything or you investigate everything - I would prefer the latter in order to safeguard our children and young people.
So to me, if a teacher (or any other professional in a position of trust) behaves in an unacceptable manner for whatever reason, the case should be investigated in order to protect the vast majority of young people in our society. And also as I've said before the professional adult knows their remit and should abide by what is expected of them. If you work with young people from birth to eighteen years your main priority should be to protect them and achieve best outcomes. If this means someone throwing a milkshake at you then perhaps you should look at what led to that happening and perhaps change your own behaviour accordingly whilst addressing the unacceptable behaviour of the young person which must have been apparent previously. Perhaps my comments seem hard but I stand by them, having been in my profession for nearly thirty years. I have every sympathy for the teacher, and perhaps the systems and culture of the school should be investigated, it could be that in this case the staff may not have been adequately protected or trained to deal with disruptive pupils.

[annesingleton]

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

You're quoting 'Correct safeguarding procedures', Ann. Do you agree with them or are they imposed on you against your better judgement?
More important, how many of these young persons have you converted to a better way of life and behaviour? And how many have ridden over you roughshod?

Sorry Gordon I haven't responded to you properly. I do agree with current safeguarding procedures even though they can be very frustrating. There should never be a need for physical altercation between adults and young people. I don't think I can answer your question fully on Accyweb, it would take far too much space! In brief, think about young people who have a cXXp life with their parent or parents who are wholly inadequate, probably drug users and have never worked, and for whom criminality is the norm. They have no positive role models, no extended family and know nothing better than the behaviour they display which they have learnt from their background. They need positive adults who can show them an alternative way of life which will be of benefit to them and to their future generations.
From my experience I can say that there are very few people who I have been able to influence, but the ones I have I consider to be successes - my aim is to implant seeds into their heads which they may think of in years to come. I think I've said previously that I often want to take them home and care for them, but obviously its not an option!

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by annesingleton

I completely disagree with you, how do you know that by your behaviour in the position of authority as a teacher you are not having a devastating effect on peoples lives?
It is not a storm in a milkshake. Like I keep saying, I fully understand the frustration of the teacher - this was perhaps the trigger point to a long string of stuff - but the adult professional cannot behave in such a manner.
Think about the long history of child abuse cases - the most recent in the news being the Victoria Climbie case, the Baby P case and even more recently the sexual exploitation cases in Rochdale where professionals have turned a blind eye. What is the answer? You turn a blind eye to everything or you investigate everything - I would prefer the latter in order to safeguard our children and young people.
So to me, if a teacher (or any other professional in a position of trust) behaves in an unacceptable manner for whatever reason, the case should be investigated in order to protect the vast majority of young people in our society. And also as I've said before the professional adult knows their remit and should abide by what is expected of them. If you work with young people from birth to eighteen years your main priority should be to protect them and achieve best outcomes. If this means someone throwing a milkshake at you then perhaps you should look at what led to that happening and perhaps change your own behaviour accordingly whilst addressing the unacceptable behaviour of the young person which must have been apparent previously. Perhaps my comments seem hard but I stand by them, having been in my profession for nearly thirty years. I have every sympathy for the teacher, and perhaps the systems and culture of the school should be investigated, it could be that in this case the staff may not have been adequately protected or trained to deal with disruptive pupils.

Teachers have been in a position of authority for a couple of hundred years, can't recall a single instance of a criminal citing a teacher to blame, or of a single person saying that a teacher devastated their life.

You cannot equate the serious case reviews of Baby P and Victoria Climbie, (they were combined multiple failures of parenting, healthcare professionals, the police and god awful communication between departments), with a teacher who through poor training or instinctiveness holds a pupils hands down.

The teacher/pupil relationship should work both ways, with mutual respect, unfortunately some kids just ain't interested. They are more up to speed with what teachers can and cannot do thanks to the internet and social media, and being kids they push, push, push to the edge. Teachers cannot adapt to a typical teenagers behaviour because your typical teenager changes their behaviour constantly.

[egg&chips]

Originally Posted by annesingleton

Sorry Gordon I haven't responded to you properly. I do agree with current safeguarding procedures even though they can be very frustrating. There should never be a need for physical altercation between adults and young people. I don't think I can answer your question fully on Accyweb, it would take far too much space! In brief, think about young people who have a cXXp life with their parent or parents who are wholly inadequate, probably drug users and have never worked, and for whom criminality is the norm. They have no positive role models, no extended family and know nothing better than the behaviour they display which they have learnt from their background. They need positive adults who can show them an alternative way of life which will be of benefit to them and to their future generations.
From my experience I can say that there are very few people who I have been able to influence, but the ones I have I consider to be successes - my aim is to implant seeds into their heads which they may think of in years to come. I think I've said previously that I often want to take them home and care for them, but obviously its not an option!

Well put Anne. I don't think that conversion is possible. At the end of the day everyone with sufficient brainpower and more importantly the will to resist peer pressure makes their own decisions for good or ill. If they are unaware that there is a better, more reasoned way to act, then they are highly unlikely to choose it. A case in point from my own experience concerns two boys, best friends from age 6or7 with serious criminal role models in their immediate family, one now a professional footballer, the other an entrepreneur dealing in illicit substances. I don't say that school made either of them choose the path they took, but hopefully it helped one of them to see that right choices can bring their own reward.

That makes me sound airy-fairy. I'm not. One of his classmates punched a guy in the throat, which resulted in his death after hospital treatment failed. He then burgled the guy's house and was put away in H.M. Hotel aged 16 for some considerable time. Did all the reasonable input that he got at the schools he attended do any good? Definitely not.
Some are born broken, others sink to brokenness due to their circumstances whilst still more choose to be broken. Allowing kids access to a way that they might be mended is a slim glimmer of hope that a few might catch onto.
Great now I sound like a vicar!

[egg&chips]

Originally Posted by Guinness

Teachers have been in a position of authority for a couple of hundred years, can't recall a single instance of a criminal citing a teacher to blame, or of a single person saying that a teacher devastated their life.

You cannot equate the serious case reviews of Baby P and Victoria Climbie, (they were combined multiple failures of parenting, healthcare professionals, the police and god awful communication between departments), with a teacher who through poor training or instinctiveness holds a pupils hands down.

The teacher/pupil relationship should work both ways, with mutual respect, unfortunately some kids just ain't interested. They are more up to speed with what teachers can and cannot do thanks to the internet and social media, and being kids they push, push, push to the edge. Teachers cannot adapt to a typical teenagers behaviour because your typical teenager changes their behaviour constantly.

I think you are right and wrong at the same time here Guiness. Certainly teenagers like anyone else will use the system as much as they can to gain from it, and someone simply holding a kid's hands down should not be fired. However teachers are people and can be as evil, cracked and damaged as anyone else, so can certainly have a detrimental effect on those they teach.
As for anyone alleging that a teacher devastated their life, it does not take a lot of searching to find such claims. Whether they are true or false is another matter. Take this for example.
Bad Teacher Ruined What Could Have Been My Life? : I Have Been Emotional Abused Story & Experience

[egg&chips]

Originally Posted by Eric

Oh come on, hon. A "second of bad ... career" ... Ok, if you are an airline pilot (Hi, BG) or a cardiac surgeon, or a burglar I can see it. But to wreck your career as a teacher, it should take more than what happened. If you waste half your class with a Glock, or, on a more serious note, cause significant emotional or psychological damage ... now, that should wreck a career. But this ... it's a mere storm in a milkshake.

It should Eric, but it might not, especially if the Head wants rid of said teacher anyway, or is not convinced that they are right for the job they are doing. It has been known for some people in all sorts of walks of life to be put into a position that their bosses know that they will not cope with in order to shorten their lifespan in the organisation. I' m not saying that this is what happened here and I' m definitely not saying that it's right, but I suspect that many of us can think back to a time in our working lives where such a thing has happened. Life can truly suck, I think you'll agree?