someone best mention it

[accyman]

there are many other options open to UK buisness and that is fact.My pal sells not only to the NHS both england and scotland but internationally to Oman,India,America,The Emerate states and a whole load of other non EU countries.What were once considered poorer countries are developing into or are now strong economies and companies like my pals are getting their feet in first and securing a strong foothold .Therse companies that are moving into the non EU countries will be the ones that survive when the EU goes belly up if it hasnt allready

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by Eric

When Graham says "To not have a referendum [is] disappointing" he isn't coming close to understanding the anger of voters who feel they are being ignored. No, it's more than just a "feeling"; it's exactly what is happening.

By the way, just in case anyone is remotely interested, the view from this side of the pond is that Europe is an econimic basket case, and poses a major threat to economic recovery in North America.

Eric, that hits the nail squarely on the head.

Our politicians are not listening, have not listened(to the concerns of the electorate) will not listen....and the EU do not understand anything at all about democratic process...if they did, then those nations who voted against the last treaty would not have been sent back to vote again until they came up with the vote that was acceptable to the EU.

We do not want to have our identity diluted, ignored or otherwise messed with, especially by those who were (in the past) our enemies.

There are other nations in the EU who are saying that, in essence, what DC is saying is right.

[Less]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Eric, that hits the nail squarely on the head.

Our politicians are not listening, have not listened.

There was one, he seemed to be 'for the people', Oh what the hey, it's up to him to prove my doubts wrong rather than for me to point out where he went wrong.

He has, up until the next to prove the faith I had by putting an X against his name.

Not looking good so far, wish I had a different attitude.

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by g jones

I have not read back over what I wrote but what I said has occurred; anti EU views have swung to the right. Cameron has made clear he wanted repeal of the working hours directive, repeal workers rights and conditions, a clawing back of EU powers in fields of environment, social affairs and crime.

And the British Government can then create it's own set of worker protective rules without the associated Euro gobbledegook that allows them to be bypassed and ignored

Originally Posted by g jones

The repeal of the EU arrest warrant for example would have left 39 pedophiles free to offend, British courts unable to convict them as they did.

Pure sensationalism...in the main the EU arrest warrant simply speeds up the extradition process, and has loads of strings attached to it. Extradition can be negotiated by treaty.

Originally Posted by g jones

Cameron's has finally and openly said in effect his EU referendum is a policy to undermine workers pay and conditions and their families.

You got a link to that? I can't find it anywhere, or is it just your interpretation of what he said?

Originally Posted by g jones

To make the labour market 'more flexible'. I made this point consistently then and suggested then it was changing my view and losing support on the left. Jobs and growth are the priority and most business leaders have stated, a referendum will undermine that objective clouding the issue. I have to consider the views of businesses locally. Their view is pro EU on the whole as your would expect.

What business are actually asking for is a referendum now or never, not to have to wait 5 years so they can plan for the future today without uncertainty. Care to name these 'local' businessess who are pro EU?

Originally Posted by g jones

But the OUT divisions are not just Labour left and UKIP/Tory right. Even the right are divided on what OUT means. It is fundamental that the case for OUT is explained in full.

Politicians may have divisions on what OUT means...the voting public do not, it's the opposite of IN. Guess that makes us smarter than your average politician

Originally Posted by g jones

However no-one can explain what OUT means. Norway often cited by many as a position Britain should adopt however it pays 80% of what British citizens pay and we would pay far more than 80% to be able to access the single market, without any say and with Britain's crucial banking at the mercy of Berlin and Paris.

Switzerland also pay and have to accept all single market EU rules (like Norway) but negotiate every single trade agreement separately. Red tape?

Some believe OUT is OUT with no trade with Europe, no single market. 50% of our export trade is currently with Europe employing 3million workers.

Pure speculation, we spend a fortune in trade, far more than they spend with us, it would be financial suicide for them to dictate unfair terms or increase tariffs, or refuse our exports we could take our business elsewhere.

Originally Posted by g jones

So no-one can agree on what OUT means. Or now what IN means with Cameron's intervention. Whether Britain will have to pay more for the SM with no say... The list of questions just goes on and on ...

And the list of answers also goes on and on....

Originally Posted by g jones

I made these points last time.

Opinion polls are quickly shifting against OUT because of this. The EU skeptic right needs to quickly and thoughtfully explain what OUT will result in because otherwise my view will keep moving away towards a solid IN.

And we all know how reliable opinion polls are.

Originally Posted by g jones

At the same time Euroskeptics have to recognise that Ed Miliband has targeted what are my concerns (and of the left - a necessary component of a successful out vote) for reform ... but within Europe.

And here is your usual obligatory EdM is my hero moment

Originally Posted by g jones

On the final point about a referendum I have met with the people's pledge to listen closely to their points of view. The question is whether a referendum could offer Britain a better future.

What Labour voters may face in a referendum is Hobson's choice. OUT and the risk of losing of employment and economic damage or IN and a renegotiated relationship that attacks workers, the environment. As I made absolutely clear last time, in this scenario, why would a Labour MP wholeheartedly endorse a possible lose-lose referendum even if he was a Euroskeptic? To not have a referendum, as disappointing as that may be would be the best option for business and workers.

Or we could just maintain the status quo, open our borders to all and sundry, join the United States of Europe and start brushing up our schoolboy German, which is what you are basically telling your labour voters to do

[jaysay]

It surprised me that Jones even bother to spend so much time making that post, or maybe it was one of his employees, schlepping for him, but I half expected him to have something to say, merely because he thought he could score a few points, pity he didn't try scoring some when he had the chance, he can't turn the clock back not on an issue like this, he stab the people of Hyndburn in the back end of story

[Retlaw]

Come the day of the EU referendum, and the vote comes out with a majority to opt out of the EU.
It won't make any difference what so ever, the government of the day will just organise new referendums until they get the vote they want.
Best way to deal with the EU is to undermine it from within and cause it to collapse.
Cameron could make them sit up and beg tomorrow, if he just told France & Germany, no more money till this is sorted.

[accyman]

Originally Posted by Guinness

Pure sensationalism...in the main the EU arrest warrant simply speeds up the extradition process, and has loads of strings attached to it. Extradition can be negotiated by treaty.

because of the EU there is a child killer walking free in darwen (although he may have moved if he has any sense) after mowing down a little girl.Although an illigal immigrant he seeded an english woman while illigally here so the EU says he has to stay in the UK .

So basically the argument that a few pedos may be lurking around if the EU wasnt flexing its muscles is a joke and besides if we wernt governed by the EU our courts would be able to deal with these sick perverts propperly and not have their decisions over ruled by authourities outside the uk court system.

we need less human rights and more victims rights in this country and all the EU offers is continuous support for the criminal

[Margaret Pilkington]

We are talking to ourselves...no-one (that can make a difference) is listening.

[accyman]

i do think that teh only reason why cameron would want out of teh EU is so that he could abuse the workforce of this country but i think he would find himself realising that theres only so far you can push the british public just like his thatcher idol realised when london got torn apart over the poll tax

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by accyman

i do think that the only reason why cameron would want out of the EU is so that he could abuse the workforce of this country but i think he would find himself realising that there's only so far you can push the british public just like his thatcher idol realised when london got torn apart over the poll tax

Accyman your a real nice bloke but some times you do talk some unadulterated crap!!!!!

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

We are talking to ourselves...no-one (that can make a difference) is listening.

Hehe, did you really expect anything else?...GJ debates on this forum like MP's of all parties debate in the house...those who can make a difference make their speeches and leave. They don't listen to the opposing arguments, they don't respond to opposing arguments, they just barrel along pushing through their own personal view regardless

[Less]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Accyman your a real nice bloke but some times you do talk some unadulterated crap!!!!!

How could you tell Jay?

Did it seem like you were talking to yourself?

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by Guinness

Hehe, did you really expect anything else?...GJ debates on this forum like MP's of all parties debate in the house...those who can make a difference make their speeches and leave. They don't listen to the opposing arguments, they don't respond to opposing arguments, they just barrel along pushing through their own personal view regardless

No, I didn't expect anything different......I might have done once of a day, but I have learned that perhaps my expectations are the problem...they are too high.
I foolishly believed that people would have similar integrity to myself.........how expensive are the lessons in life.(sigh)

[cmonstanley]

it depends what people want britain to be in the world,a little back water country with no trade agreements and constant red tape for exporters.this is a policy of david cameron i agree with. we should renegotiate not leave.we need every chance and help to get growth going again.i do think human rights bill should be changed to the rights of the victim not the criminal.workers rights should be on a different bill.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by cmonstanley

it depends what people want britain to be in the world,a little back water country with no trade agreements and constant red tape for exporters.this is a policy of david cameron i agree with. we should renegotiate not leave.we need every chance and help to get growth going again.i do think human rights bill should be changed to the rights of the victim not the criminal.workers rights should be on a different bill.

Thats all well n good, but whats yer position if Europe won't play ball?