Something doesn't seem right here - Page 3

jaysay · 09-09-2012, 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guinness

*Thread wander alert*

I'm of the opinion that the ability to commit premeditated murder is innate.

People from all walks of life, social upbringing, parental role models etc... have senselessly killed another human being. So I agree with you, there can be no such thing as an effective deterrent for a person who is amoral enough to commit an act as vile as taking a life.

Should murderers be executed? No..its far too humane, after all it's what we do for our sick animals, (and it wont be too long before we can do it to our sick relatives). As evidence I'll cite Gary Gilmore and more recently Anders Brevik who both pretty much begged to be be executed. Gilmore even went to court to select the method of his own destruction.

Should murderers die behind bars? Yes..it appeases my own 'innate' sense of fair play, even though it galls me to have to pay (via taxes) for them, never to have to worry about keeping a roof over their head, never having to worry about putting food on the table, never having to wait for a doctors/specialists appointment, never having to wait in their dementia ridden old age for a carer to pop in for a few minutes to give them their medication and microwaved ready meal.

But then I think, they are never going to spend a drunken friday night with good mates, a sunday walk in the woods with someone special, a drive round the ring of Kerry, a cruise down the nile, xmas with the family etc..etc.. and I really wouldn't mind my taxes being spent on life meaning life..

without the chance of parole..

ever..

Well I have to admit that I'm a member of the Hang Um Flog um Brigade Guinness, especially for some murderers, like Huntley and Brady, the flaw in the life behind bars is, in today's penal system, its like a lifetime in Butlins. Now if these scumbags were to be made to work, no graft every day and the rest of the time spent in a sell with just the basics like a few books etc. then fine, but they aren't. They have Gameboys, Sky TV, Gym Equipment, Stereo Systems and anything else that makes their useless lives less mundane, they are better of than many of our pensioners who worked all their lives. Our justice system needs overhauling and not by dogooders, and the first change would be making Judges retire at 65 maximum

kestrelx · 10-09-2012, 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay

Former Premier League Footballer Andrew Hall, 18 has been jailed for the murder of his 15 year old girlfriend the judge said it was because he was jealous of her other friends. He knifed her around 60 times in her own home, yet the Judge sentenced him to life in prison, with a requirement that he serves at least 10 years

Ten flaming years, if that had been my daughter I'd have been pulling my hair out at that sentence, knifing anybody 60 times tells me and most right minded people that this chap is a very dangerous person, and the thought that he could be back on the streets in 10 years is, to say the least frightening

If he serves at least 10 years that means he could be out when he's 29 which means he still would have part of his youth left ( youth meaning he'll still be young) What the law should do in these cases, because he took the life of someone, then the law should take his life, if not literally, then at least take away the quality of his life, in that he be let out when he is at least 40 years old and those youthful years lost for ever. To me that is fit punishment.

jaysay · 11-09-2012, 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by kestrelx

If he serves at least 10 years that means he could be out when he's 29 which means he still would have part of his youth left ( youth meaning he'll still be young) What the law should do in these cases, because he took the life of someone, then the law should take his life, if not literally, then at least take away the quality of his life, in that he be let out when he is at least 40 years old and those youthful years lost for ever. To me that is fit punishment.

Totally agree for once, I can never get my head round any judge using the term life in prison, when it hardly ever means that

Houseboy · 11-09-2012, 13:19

Don't disagree with any of the sentiments on this thread at all, I have 3 daughters and would personally throw the switch on anyone who harmed them but:

The problem with hanging is that is pretty final and there have been many mistakes over the years and I would prefer a hundred murderers live than one innocent person is hanged.

There is no deterrent other than that of actually being caught (the punishment doesn't matter if you don't get brought to justice).

Many (most?) murders are spur of the moment (as has been said before) and when the red mist descends who knows what can happen?

The life meaning life argument is strong but I suspect that dangling the carrot of possible freedom in front of prisoners is one way of maintaining order in prison. Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue from a couple of hundred blokes locked up with absolutely nothing to lose? There wouldn't be a rush to become a prison warder would there?

The issue of murder and punishment is an emotive one and very difficult to resolve.

churchfcrules · 11-09-2012, 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by kestrelx

If he serves at least 10 years that means he could be out when he's 29 which means he still would have part of his youth left ( youth meaning he'll still be young) What the law should do in these cases, because he took the life of someone, then the law should take his life, if not literally, then at least take away the quality of his life, in that he be let out when he is at least 40 years old and those youthful years lost for ever. To me that is fit punishment.

dunno im 41, and dont feel "over the hill, plenty of time left for me to have a life!

4 kids all over the age of 16 now, i think im still "young enough", that i could get rid of mrs church (she wishes), and get a new one and have more children

be 18 before id turn 60, and possibly have another 23 marriage with someone else

so if they argument is just take away their youth, i suppose its relative

being released @ 40, 11 years of 3 square meals access to free gym equipment, education could work out well for some.

Margaret Pilkington · 11-09-2012, 14:21

Maybe we should accommodate pensioners in the prisons....and make the criminals live on a pension.

I think that prison is a cushy place. No worries about paying for the roof over your head, poll tax, heating and lighting bills, (you can even brush up your education and do a degree at the tax payers expense)........stuff to keep you entertained.
Sounds a bit of a 'beano' to me.

Prisoners should have to graft hard every single day, at something which is mind numbingly boring, and so physical that they long all day for bedtime to come. Food should be so basic that it just keeps body and soul together.

I don't suppose it will ever happen because I'm sure some Human Rights lawyer would be screaming for the rights of the prisoner.

Balbus · 11-09-2012, 14:46

Prison is a punishment. The only people who think it isn't are those who have never been inside one. I have (professionally) frequently. I hated it and was always glad to get out at the end of the day. I only saw the "nicer" parts of the prison when interviewing Defendants, and that was bad enough.
Remember, if you treat people like animals, they will behave like animals (viz. the Strangeways riots).
Prison should (but not always does) work on the basis that there is always hope of redemption. That is what Parole is all about. Not everyone can be redeemed, that is why not everyone gets parole.
Bear in mind too, that the younger you are, the longer time appears. At 20, a 10 year sentence is half your life so far, and arguably a greater punishment than it would be for an old lag.

susie123 · 11-09-2012, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balbus

Prison is a punishment. The only people who think it isn't are those who have never been inside one. I have (professionally) frequently. I hated it and was always glad to get out at the end of the day. I only saw the "nicer" parts of the prison when interviewing Defendants, and that was bad enough.
Remember, if you treat people like animals, they will behave like animals (viz. the Strangeways riots).
Prison should (but not always does) work on the basis that there is always hope of redemption. That is what Parole is all about. Not everyone can be redeemed, that is why not everyone gets parole.
Bear in mind too, that the younger you are, the longer time appears. At 20, a 10 year sentence is half your life so far, and arguably a greater punishment than it would be for an old lag.

Wise words, Balbus, and good to hear from one at the sharp end, as it were.

I have been to a number of prisons, only as a visitor, not in any professional capacity, and they are not nice places.The point about time seeming longer if you are young is valid. The person that I and my partner visited ended up hanging himself because he thought he would never get out.

Another thing that is sometimes forgotten is that the prisoner is not the only one who is punished - families have to cope with the effects of a sentence too.

Margaret Pilkington · 11-09-2012, 16:19

It is sad that the families of the prisoner are punished......but shouldn't the prisoner have thought about them when he/she was perpetrating the act?

At least the family will get to see their relative on visiting day....the murdered persons family have been robbed of their relative and will never see them again.......I think you have to keep that perspective in mind.

Prison might feel bad to those who are only visiting, but the fact that many criminals re-offend means that it can't be that bad, or the thought of going back in would be a deterrent. It clearly isn't.

susie123 · 11-09-2012, 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

It is sad that the families of the prisoner are punished......but shouldn't the prisoner have thought about them when he/she was perpetrating the act?

At least the family will get to see their relative on visiting day....the murdered persons family have been robbed of their relative and will never see them again.......I think you have to keep that perspective in mind.

Prison might feel bad to those who are only visiting, but the fact that many criminals re-offend means that it can't be that bad, or the thought of going back in would be a deterrent. It clearly isn't.

If we are talking about murder, as has been stated before on this thread, it is often if not usually a heat of the moment affair so the family is likely to be the last thing on the perpetrator's mind.

jaysay · 11-09-2012, 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by susie123

If we are talking about murder, as has been stated before on this thread, it is often if not usually a heat of the moment affair so the family is likely to be the last thing on the perpetrator's mind.

Ya I see what you mean susie, the guy this threads about stabbed a 15 year old girl 60 times, ya spur of the moment, but this guy maybe back on the streets before he's 30, without a care in the world, done mi time gov, pity the girls parents won't be seeing their daughter back on the streets that soon too, they'll carry their grief to their graves because of a spur of the moment act