Teachers strike?

Guinness · 07-09-2012, 17:00

Teachers are at it again I see...

BBC News - Teachers to strike over pay and conditions

I have very little time for teachers, mainly because they don't live in the real world and all they have known their whole lives is the inside of a classroom. They knock creativity out of kids and try to make them to learn by rote.

Kids leave school with a worse grasp of English than many of their foreign counterparts taking English as a second language. Many cannot spell, most have little to no vocabulary, and cannot do basic mathematics. Who is to blame for that then?

I give you the following quote from the article, the NUT general secretary reckons...

"No other profession comes under such continual scrutiny and no other profession has accountability systems based on so little trust."

What an idiotic comment! I can think of a few, but I'll give her one that puts her complaint about "unacceptable working conditions and pay" into the shade

I have a friend in the caring profession, you know the one where we employ people to look after our old, infirm and dying...they have to follow more rules and regulations, are constantly assessed, have to do endless training and are thrown from pillar to post trying to meet impossible deadlines because of a lack of funding (and in some cases greedy care home owners), they have no pension schemes, no six week holiday in summer, don't get every weekend off, often have to work nights, always have to stay on until the next shift arrives, work bank holidays, they need to possess a greater range of skills than teachers and are usually paid the bare minimum wage.

And do you know who will suffer if these overpaid numpties come out on strike, the above profession...they will have to miss work to look after their kids, which will put more strain on the already overworked care staff that don't have kids, having to do more work because of staff shortages and the old, infirm and dying who will not receive anything like their normal care.

Teachers have it rough...do me a favour..

You want fair pay...try doing your job properly.

jaysay · 07-09-2012, 17:13

Thems as can do, them as can't teach

Eric · 07-09-2012, 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay

Thems as can do, them as can't teach

And those who can't teach, teach others how to teach

Eric · 07-09-2012, 17:27

Maybe something like this would go down well with some of you:

McGuinty acknowledges Ontario teachers' anger - Toronto - CBC News

Stumped · 07-09-2012, 17:34

I don't know how they have the gall to even think of striking after the generous holidays they have just returned from - not to mention the days lost to bad weather earlier in the year. My youngest daughter is a teacher. She tells me that they are browbeaten by the militant unions and are obliged to strike whether they want to or not. Maybe we should concentrate our childrens education on the independent schools that are springing up around the country!

jaysay · 07-09-2012, 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric

And those who can't teach, teach others how to teach

Ad infinitum

egg&chips · 07-09-2012, 21:48

Hmmm. I thought that I would have to add my two penn'orth here, especially in view of Guiness' second and third paragraphs.
Firstly the claim that teachers do not live in the real world. In my school I have dealt with three families with children subject to systematic sexual abuse from family members and many more with children who have been physically and emotionally abused. Many have undergone trauma in countries that they have fled from and have the mental scars to hinder their integration into our society. In one two month period three parents were murdered as a result of a drugs war. Several occasions of children bringing knives into school in order to attack classmates have been dealt with in the last few years. As a result of the deficiencies of the community I work in, at least one member of staff in my school is kicked, punched or spat upon almost every working day, usually by children, very occasionally by parents or carers. This is before we start to think about educating.
In my life I have taught for 15 years,prior to which I have worked in offices, banks, petrol stations, pubs, holiday camps, rubbish dumps, shops, bookies and a hostel for recovering alcoholics. I consider myself to have spent some time outside of the classroom. Oh yes, I sold advertising and financial products for a time (not my finest hours).
Do I moan? Of course, I think everyone who does a tough job does moan and furthermore should moan. Hopefully, I keep such moaning to colleagues,family and friends whose reciprocity in the art of grumbling is a given.
I won't go into the issue of teachers' hours and holidays at length, but suffice to say that several teachers in my school arrive at 7.30 and leave at 6 then go home to do planning and marking for the next day. On our pay slips it says 32.5 hours per week, if I work less than 50 hours, it's been a soft week.
As for teaching by rote and crushing creativity, I cannot deny that rote teaching can be effectively employed for some learning objectives, but know that the emphasis put on different learning preferences even when trainee teachers are being coached means that this is a technique which is dying out.
I suspect that because we all(presumably) went to school at some point in our lives, and have had experiences which weren't always positive, those experiences are carried around for many years and colour our perceptions. It is understandable that people carry these opinions around and that they feel obliged to offer such opinions freely to all who would listen. It's their right and they are correct in exercising such rights no matter how misguided their beliefs are. I suppose it's all a question of how effective their education has been for them.

Guinness · 07-09-2012, 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by egg&chips

Hmmm. I thought that I would have to add my two penn'orth here, especially in view of Guiness' second and third paragraphs.
Firstly the claim that teachers do not live in the real world. In my school I have dealt with three families with children subject to systematic sexual abuse from family members and many more with children who have been physically and emotionally abused. Many have undergone trauma in countries that they have fled from and have the mental scars to hinder their integration into our society. In one two month period three parents were murdered as a result of a drugs war. Several occasions of children bringing knives into school in order to attack classmates have been dealt with in the last few years. As a result of the deficiencies of the community I work in, at least one member of staff in my school is kicked, punched or spat upon almost every working day, usually by children, very occasionally by parents or carers. This is before we start to think about educating.
In my life I have taught for 15 years,prior to which I have worked in offices, banks, petrol stations, pubs, holiday camps, rubbish dumps, shops, bookies and a hostel for recovering alcoholics. I consider myself to have spent some time outside of the classroom. Oh yes, I sold advertising and financial products for a time (not my finest hours).
Do I moan? Of course, I think everyone who does a tough job does moan and furthermore should moan. Hopefully, I keep such moaning to colleagues,family and friends whose reciprocity in the art of grumbling is a given.
I won't go into the issue of teachers' hours and holidays at length, but suffice to say that several teachers in my school arrive at 7.30 and leave at 6 then go home to do planning and marking for the next day. On our pay slips it says 32.5 hours per week, if I work less than 50 hours, it's been a soft week.
As for teaching by rote and crushing creativity, I cannot deny that rote teaching can be effectively employed for some learning objectives, but know that the emphasis put on different learning preferences even when trainee teachers are being coached means that this is a technique which is dying out.
I suspect that because we all(presumably) went to school at some point in our lives, and have had experiences which weren't always positive, those experiences are carried around for many years and colour our perceptions. It is understandable that people carry these opinions around and that they feel obliged to offer such opinions freely to all who would listen. It's their right and they are correct in exercising such rights no matter how misguided their beliefs are. I suppose it's all a question of how effective their education has been for them.

So armed with your SMART and VAK teaching styles, just what pray tell have you accomplished that the teachers of 20,30,40 or even 50 years ago did not? Apart from a reduction in standards of education

Your argument about starting at 7.30 finishing at 6...those care workers do 13 hour waking shifts and then do 10 hour sleep overs that rarely afford them any sleep, thereby going home some 23 hours after leaving. On their pay slip it probably says 70+ hours and still I'm willing to bet its less than half of your 32.5.

Some care workers are spat on, kicked, punched, verbally abused on a day to day basis and still go home smiling, they have to deal with disgruntled and abusive family members with a smile, and cope with death and grief also on a daily basis.

egg&chips · 07-09-2012, 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guinness

So armed with your SMART and VAK teaching styles, just what pray tell have you accomplished that the teachers of 20,30,40 or even 50 years ago did not? Apart from a reduction in standards of education

Your argument about starting at 7.30 finishing at 6...those care workers do 13 hour waking shifts and then do 10 hour sleep overs that rarely afford them any sleep, thereby going home some 23 hours after leaving. On their pay slip it probably says 70+ hours and still I'm willing to bet its less than half of your 32.5.

Some care workers are spat on, kicked, punched, verbally abused on a day to day basis and still go home smiling, they have to deal with disgruntled and abusive family members with a smile, and cope with death and grief also on a daily basis.

I agree that many pupils doing A levels today would struggle to pass the eleven plus exams from 1937. However, this is not 1937. Hopefully, we educate children to live, work and contribute to 21st century communities and to bEcome vital members of society e.g. care workers.

I agree that my hours, conditions and pay are better than many, but also worse than some too. I have family who do work in the NHS, and indeed they smile at work, as, I believe should all workers who deal with people, in whatever their role (possibly not coroners etc.). I also agree that I probably do not need a pay rise, a little belt tightening would possibly do me good.
What I do object to is the incredibly sweeping nature of some of your statements, which are, to be blunt, wrong.

Guinness · 07-09-2012, 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by egg&chips

I agree that many pupils doing A levels today would struggle to pass the eleven plus exams from 1937. However, this is not 1937. Hopefully, we educate children to live, work and contribute to 21st century communities and to bEcome vital members of society e.g. care workers.

I agree that my hours, conditions and pay are better than many, but also worse than some too. I have family who do work in the NHS, and indeed they smile at work, as, I believe should all workers who deal with people, in whatever their role (possibly not coroners etc.). I also agree that I probably do not need a pay rise, a little belt tightening would possibly do me good.
What I do object to is the incredibly sweeping nature of some of your statements, which are, to be blunt, wrong

If we are talking sweeping statements here...take a look at the quoted statement of your own general secretary in my first post! Patronising, belittling and downright garbage!

You are correct, its not 1937, its 2012, does that mean that kids do not need to be able to do the basic 3 R's to get a job?

Going off topic for a sec.... IMO using VAK and SMART only works with people who want to learn...most kids (13-17) realistically don't want to learn, school is somewhere they hangout between 9 and 3, I guess I could argue that secondary teachers are overpaid childminders

Mancie · 07-09-2012, 23:15

Lets be honest..a teachers strike is abit of a hassle that we can mostly cope with.. when the police and nurses strike it's not so good and could happen within the next few years..you lot can slag off teachers all you like but they are members of the public like you and me.. I'd say this is no time to stick heads in the sand..normal working people no matter their standing are striking and marching against this draconian unelected government because they don't like them.. simple

Studio25 · 07-09-2012, 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guinness

...Kids leave school with a worse grasp of English than many of their foreign counterparts taking English as a second language. Many cannot spell, most have little to no vocabulary, and cannot do basic mathematics. Who is to blame for that then?

Parents.

Many parents in underprivileged areas treat school as free childcare for 30 or so hours per week. They don't care what their child is doing while at school. Many more have the apathetic view that school doesn't make a difference - there are no jobs when the kids have "done their time" anyway. They feel no incentive to help improve the school, so it means the school will never improve.

They aren't the only parents at fault. There are other parents who do care what happens to their kids during the day - to the extent that they are willing to lie or move house or whatever to make sure their kids get in a "good" school. What they don't realise is that this behaviour perpetuates the problem of disillusioned, troublesome pupils all being concentrated into one set of schools.

Nobody will ever convince them to mix it up, because humans are fundamentally selfish.

So with the "good" schools destined to always get the cream, and the "bad" schools never getting out of their rut, you'll always have a two-tier educational system, both in terms of the ability and/or motivation of the pupils, and the ability/motivation of the teachers.

I've got very limited experience of the quality of modern teachers: Only my son's primary and secondary schools to go by. Both are exemplary, in my opinion. So while I have a 100% satisfaction rating for our educational system, it's hardly based on a representative sample.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mancie

Lets be honest..a teachers strike is abit of a hassle that we can mostly cope with.. when the police and nurses strike it's not so good and could happen within the next few years.....

Don't think the nurses will strike any time soon - my wife's gift from the NHS for 30 years of service is a debanding of her pay grade. The same job for £3,000 less.

egg&chips · 08-09-2012, 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guinness

If we are talking sweeping statements here...take a look at the quoted statement of your own general secretary in my first post! Patronising, belittling and downright garbage!

You are correct, its not 1937, its 2012, does that mean that kids do not need to be able to do the basic 3 R's to get a job?

Going off topic for a sec.... IMO using VAK and SMART only works with people who want to learn...most kids (13-17) realistically don't want to learn, school is somewhere they hangout between 9 and 3, I guess I could argue that secondary teachers are overpaid childminders

Ms Blower is someone who gets carried away with her own rhetoric, I agree. She seems to have fallen into the politicians snare of concentrating on the education of politics at some press conferences. No guesses which quotes the largely Tory press pick up on, take out of context and subsequently use as kindling for a little union baiting.having said that, it's partly her job to protect her members' interests as she is directed. She also has a point in demonstrating ire in the way schools are judged as schools in vastly different areas, dealing with raw material (kids) with vastly different abilities, backgrounds and environmental challenges are expected to get similar levels of attainment or face being academised. Senior leadership replaced, staff pay scales reordered, pupil numbers and learning hours rearranged as a result. Education is a political football that few governments can resist "punsing", as we used to say in our house.

I can't recall writing that children don't need to learn how to read, write or have numeracy skills. If I implied this, it was in error and I apologise.

I completely agree that any and all teaching methods are only effective if people actually want to learn, but to call my secondary colleagues childminders is a little harsh when their charges are often 6'+ and built like prop forwards. Gaolers, orderlies or security guards all with benevolent and academic intentions would be nearer the mark, I think. Raising the leaving age to 18 and expecting people to keep turning up on a daily basis for 6 hours of activities they lost interest in around about the same time they stopped playing tig will not improve matters, but will keep a temporary lid on "NEET" figures.

egg&chips · 08-09-2012, 08:33

By the way, I just checked out childminders rates and can't find anything below £4 per child per hour. That would make my pay rate something between £100 and £125 per hour. I' m not on that rate.

jaysay · 08-09-2012, 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by egg&chips

By the way, I just checked out childminders rates and can't find anything below £4 per child per hour. That would make my pay rate something between £100 and £125 per hour. I' m not on that rate.

Thats a very poor way to look at things