The Education System - Page 2

andrewb · 29-07-2006, 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

We had to learn the multiplication tables up to and including the 12 times table off by heart and did so BEFORE joining a Secondary school of some sort. We were even doing long division and multiplication by then too.

So did I, infact we learnt the multiplication table up to 15 (just for a bit of additional challenge), well before we left primary school.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

Today’s Metric system is so easy that there can be no excuse for an eleven year old not being competent with numbers. Why they are not has to be down to – in no particular order – the education system, the teachers, the pupils and the parents.

To be fair, you keep mentioning how easy the metric system is, the imperial wasn't rocket science. I'm pretty sure everyone understands the metric system, just some have crap arithmetic skills. Heck I can't addup on the spot when im put under pressure. My mind just goes blank unless i've been dealing with currency all day, then you get used to giving change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

We did have a calculator of a sort called Log Tables and Slide Rule and we used them both but not until we had mastered not just arithmetic but also mental arithmetic too. There is nothing wrong with kids using calculators but they should first learn the basics thoroughly. It is easy to hit the wrong key on a calculator without realising it, but when I do and look at the answer I know instinctively that something is wrong.

Of course you need basics, or you won't understand what a calculator is doing, so won't know what to input. Though for the record I think calculators are much better than logs, logs are usualy quite hard to read, with the mass of numbers surrounding the one you're after. I find it much easier typing it in to a calculator, even when its a long sum with multiple nested brackets, though maybe thats just me.

Busman747 · 30-07-2006, 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gayle

I remember when I was at school and you used to get marks for showing how you'd worked out the answer even if you got the wrong answer - surely that system wasn't right either. I mean, I'd far rather have the correct change by someone using mechanical means than them saying to me that their long division looked good..

Do you not feel then Gayle, that you benefited at school by being taught how to analyse a problem and come up with an answer step by step? I have never heard of anyone that had their schooling in the 60's/70's with the exception of yourself and the PC clowns that changed the system to be so critical. I would expect it of the youth simply because they are not aware of how effective the old way was.

Perhaps you can be thankful that you went to school just before these same idiots put through a policy of teaching spelling "as it sounds" The poor sods that received that load of tripe will suffer for the rest of their lives

As far as I am concerned, with good teaching, all but the few that do not have the ability should have a grasp of arithmetic and how it works before the age of 11, instead, we have kids that can text umpteen part-words a minute on their phones - - but tend to be brain dead when trying to hold figures in their head.

jambutty · 30-07-2006, 08:34

Compared to the old Imperial system of weights, measures and money, decimal is an absolute doddle.

When you got used to Logarithms they were easy but sadly inaccurate. As was the ordinary slide rule. There were large (and very expensive) scientific slide rules but even they were not absolutely accurate.

People are different and some have a flair for one subject whilst struggling in others but all have a grasp of simple arithmetic or they would have but for the teaching methods.

Ber999T · 30-07-2006, 08:35

When I left school in 75/76 and started work in a Butchers shop I had to work out the prices in my head as meat was asked for in various amounts of weight ie £1.76p per pound and asked for 3/4 of a pound =£1.32p.

Yes I too remember the Imperial money weights etc.

When I first started on the buses we had the old TIM's (Ticket Issuing Machine) and cash bag over the shoulder and some of the TIM's had the old money on the dial with the 11d blocked off.

Now adays I work with people who have been taught both ways and sometimes forget that the younger staff are only used to metric and when I say turn left in 300yds get a look of shock so then have to quickly turn it into 250mtr LOL

I still can't get used to the use of kilometers and meters but guess I'll have to as like Lettie I will have to work out childs weight, age for dose of drugs and power of equipment when required.

But I still work out how much change I will get back and sometimes cause confusion by offering the odd pence to make MY change eaiser to put in MY pocket ie cost £5.15 offer a £10 note and the 15p (so I get a five pound note!!) sometimes the look on their face is brill (ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh wot do i do now????) as the till has been rung up and shows change as £4.85.

It has to come down to the way people react to the change of system of teaching but I agree that they need the basic skills of Adding and Subtracting so that they can think on their feet and NOT get robbed when they go shopping.

Yes it does come with experence and I'm not the best of spellers but I am getting better and my keyborad skills are getting better thanks to Accyweb LOL

Mick · 30-07-2006, 08:58

I was an apprentice electrician working for a firm in Preston but out on a contract in Clitheroe when the money system changed over as an apprentice it was my job to go for the dinners to the chippy most of our gang were 40-50 years old and did not understand the new money system so i made a fortune that week hehe

SPUGGIE J · 30-07-2006, 12:24

Reading this thread has made me realise how much we rely on gadgets to do something that the grey matter should do as a common act. What would happen if all this electronic guff went up the swanny one day how would we cope? We have become too relient on it to the point that things like maths written English (in a letter with proper spelling grammer etc) are dying out.

Are we condeming or children to being slaves to a machine??? My own daughter isnt hot at maths and if she struggles askes for the calc. If I make her try it the old fashion way its a case of it "takes to long" or "I cant do that." I will keep trying even if its just for basic maths as I believe you should only need a calc in an emergency.

Busman747 · 30-07-2006, 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

[People are different and some have a flair for one subject whilst struggling in others but all have a grasp of simple arithmetic or they would have but for the teaching methods.[/SIZE]

Thank you jambutty, this was my point entirely, - and to SPUGGIE who said: "Reading this thread has made me realise how much we rely on gadgets to do something that the grey matter should do as a common act. What would happen if all this electronic guff went up the swanny one day how would we cope? We have become too relient on it to the point that things like maths written English (in a letter with proper spelling grammer etc) are dying out."

I just feel that the youth of today have been let down in that the education system, instead of training children to hold information in their head, move it about, - and come up with an answer, they instruct them to hit a few buttons and Hey-Presto, the answer is there! BUT WHAT IS WRONG WITH LETTING THE BRAIN EXERCISE ITSELF??

Modern day tills give the operator the amount of change to be given, scanners make the retail trade so much easier - - but does that guarentee that the customer gets the right change?

One of my daughters applied for a job as a croupier at Stanleys Casino. At school, she was "so-so" at mental arithmetic but after the interview, and before the second, she was given an insight as to what the job entailed. The mental arithmetic was frightening, 27x5 plus X and confidently give the answer in the time that it takes to think the question - - and we are talking pay-out money, so it CANNOT be wrong! I talked her through the "shortcuts" and she grasped the idea. She only remained there for 6 months, but in that time, got an offer to work in London for mega-money! She turned it down, but thats another story. I was reminded of this by another daughter (I have loads ) who frequently goes shopping with her, If they go shopping together and only have £40-00 to spend, she knows almost to the penny, how much the shopping will come to when they reach the till I am dead proud of her!! - - - but I digress, How many of todays youth can do the same? This is NOT intelligence, it is simply teaching them how to use their brain and to hold information for a second or two so that they can calculate, and go back to the original figure. THIS is what the schools should be teaching!

andrewb · 31-07-2006, 08:59

When it comes to calculators don't get me wrong, it's not a case of "I don't know 7x7 i'll use my calculator"

We only use them in complex questions which can't be worked out in your head and would take a lot of time to work out on paper. Time is valuable and some things are worth putting in a calculator, so you can learn other things on the sylabus. It makes sense to not waste time on overly complex math when you can use a calculator, but with simple maths you should always use your head to exercise your brain. We were always told this and the teacher would try and make sure it happened.

Mick · 31-07-2006, 09:17

At school we were always told to show your working out ...how did you arrive at the answer even if you got it wrong .

Gayle · 31-07-2006, 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busman747

Do you not feel then Gayle, that you benefited at school by being taught how to analyse a problem and come up with an answer step by step? I have never heard of anyone that had their schooling in the 60's/70's with the exception of yourself and the PC clowns that changed the system to be so critical. I would expect it of the youth simply because they are not aware of how effective the old way was.

Don't get me wrong here, I loved maths and was quite good at it - I could do it quite easily and loved doing the complicated step by step sums. But I do remember sitting there and thinking 'what use will this really be in the real world' and my answer now that I'm in the real world is very little.

Adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing should be taught and practiced until people are capable of doing it in their heads - the rest, is just for dressing!

Busman747 · 31-07-2006, 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gayle

Adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing should be taught and practiced until people are capable of doing it in their heads - the rest, is just for dressing!

This is exactly what I was saying at the start of the thread Gayle, forget logs and cosigns, mental arithmetic is ALL important but the schools quite often "skip over" the basics now, hence the girl that was unable to give me the correct change simply because her till didn't "tell" her what to pay back.

SPUGGIE J · 31-07-2006, 18:20

How many members here have used all the "fancy stuff" in their working lives?

Engineers might same with surveyors and architecs maybe some sceince based bods but not many others.

Madhatter · 31-07-2006, 19:50

I've used a fair bit but not the real fancy stuff.
7*7 is a hard sum to work out really unless you know your tables because its an odd times an odd.

Adding up whole shopping bills where something we used to do when we got minimum spend vouchers, ie 4pound off when you spend 20. Excellent way of keeping your brain active.
it's also not just learning it you see, it's learning it and using it to keep it learnt. Brain cells die off all through our lives, and word and number puxxles help to slow the process.

Calculator should only be used in schools as they were in our day, only as far as need be to teach people how to use them, how to work out percentage with a percent key, and without a percent key, and then add it back on etc.
How to use the fancy button, profit margins ad mark up etc.

Tills. hmmm I once had an argument with someone in a cafe about my bill. She rang it up, gave me my change and i sat down. I went back and said this isn't right, she went through it and said it is. I said it can't be.
Anyway, I sat down ate my food and worked it out as she suggested i should, and then I'd see it was correct. It was incorrect. The change she gave me was right based on what the till said she should give me, but the till added the actual items up wrong 24 plus 24 does not come to 54, therefore it was wrong .
Goes back to the girl, goes through it, she says "there now can you see its right", NO, Goes through it again,NO ITS NOT RIGHT, YOUR TILL IS WRONG.
She gets a piece of paper writes down the items, like I'm being totally thick, and hey presto. lol the look on her face. I accepted her oppology as it was so obvious that she put so much faith in her stoopid till she would have trusted it with her life so therefore she would never have believed I could be right.