The EU gravy train

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by MargaretR

A private members bill to get us out of the EU has been submitted to parliament.
Here it is -

http://www.publications.parliament.u...50/2009050.pdf

Whichever MP of whichever party has submitted it, he deserves a pat on the back, and all the luck in the world.

I'll subscribe to that too

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by jaysay

I'll subscribe to that too

So will I. Unfortunately it hasn't got a snowball in hell's chance of getting through, because the vast majority of MPs from all parties want us to stay in the EU.

Incidentally, Jaysay, good to see you're willing to stand up and be counted, despite the fact that you're going against official Tory policy.

Could the Accyweb Labour party members tell us where they stand on this?

Just curious...

[andrewb]

Lord Willoughby de Broke - was a Conservative Peer but changed to UKIP in 2007.

[Mancie]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Unlike lots of politically involved people Wynonie, I have always looked at things from my prospective and not the Party Angle and there are times I have disagreed with the official party line, I'm quite capable of looking at things from my own point of view and not the party line, always have and always will

but you would still vote Tory even if you disagreed with everything they proposed ..lets get the record straight, it was a Tory government that took us into the EU...the only referendom ever given to the British people was by a Labour government... the Tories don't like to mention the facts!

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by Mancie

but you would still vote Tory even if you disagreed with everything they proposed ..lets get the record straight, it was a Tory government that took us into the EU...the only referendom ever given to the British people was by a Labour government... the Tories don't like to mention the facts!

OK, then, Mancie, could the present government please continue their proud record of consultative democracy by giving us the referendum they promised us on the European Constitution/Lisbon Treaty?

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Mancie

but you would still vote Tory even if you disagreed with everything they proposed ..lets get the record straight, it was a Tory government that took us into the EU...the only referendum ever given to the British people was by a Labour government... the Tories don't like to mention the facts!

And lets not forget the referendum was promised on the European constitution in Labours 2005 election manifesto but has been denied the British public, seems Mancie has more than a selective memory when it comes to his own oiks at Westminster

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

OK, then, Mancie, could the present government please continue their proud record of consultative democracy by giving us the referendum they promised us on the European Constitution/Lisbon Treaty?

Ah you beat me to it Wynonie, but you have to make allowances for Mancie

[blazey]

The EU actually have quite a tight policy on immigration. It's completely misinformed to think that the EU allows criminals to move freely between member states. The only people given any real right in the EU to move around are 'workers', their families and students, and these are subject to restrictions as well.

Most people just don't understand how the EU works, and the Europa website is a running joke with students like me who enjoy EU law, because it is the most inconvenient website to navigate even when you know exactly what you are looking for. Most of the time the search function won't even bring up specific documents that I am looking for so to access them I have to type the same thing into google and 'Europa' to find it. It's horrendous from my point of view so god help anyone who is searching information about something vague that they don't have much information about.

The EU lacks transparency in a lot of senses. One of the good things about the EU is that is does believe in subsidiarity, and so if an issue really is better dealt with by national parliaments and not the EU, then it is the national parliaments who will deal with it.

I'm very pro-EU, but before I had studied it I hadn't really given it much thought. It's a body which needs to interact more with it's national member states' citizens, and probably more so now in our case what with the BNP having seats, who represent very few people in reality.

I think politics in general fails people because it doesn't listen to what people say. Most of the time though, people just criticise without actually offering any real suggestions for change, so the people are probably just as much to blame as the politicians.

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by blazey

It's a body which needs to interact more with it's national member states' citizens, and probably more so now in our case what with the BNP having seats, who represent very few people in reality.

A classic Europhile technique - brand the Eurosceptics as xenophobic racists, then we don't have to bother about all the inconvenient realities of the EU superstate...like the fact that its own auditors have refused to sign its accounts off for how many years now?...is it 14?

Like the fact that the EU has total and utter contempt for democracy. So much so that they've refused to give the people of its member states a vote on the Lisbon Treaty. Oh sorry, the Irish are getting a vote, but they got it wrong first time, so they've got to vote again in the hope that they "get it right".

As for "subsidiarity", here's a prime example - When this country brought the Merchant Shipping Act into force in an attempt to curb the large, unpoliced Spanish fishing fleet from buying up our quotas and depleting our dwindling fish stocks, the European Court of Justice decided that the Act was illegal. Not only did we have to give the Spanish free access to our territorial waters, we also had to pay them 150m euros compensation! Naturally, our gutless government meekly complied with all this, but so much for "subsidiarity"!

Still, fair play to you, Blazey. At least you're prepared to come on here and speak up for the EU. Quite a contrast to the Labour party members on here who, as they support the government, presumably support the EU, yet avoid this issue like the plague!

[Mancie]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Ah you beat me to it Wynonie, but you have to make allowances for Mancie

Can't argue with you on that..I am bias and don't pretend to be otherwise..unlike some people!

[steeljack]

seems even the German courts have doubts about the validity of the 'Lisbon treaty'

Yellow Light from Constitutional Court: Germany Cannot Ratify Lisbon -- Yet - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

[blazey]

I never called anyone a racist Jaysay, what I said was that it is even MORE important these days to ensure you have your say, because we're being represented by a party that is linked with racist attacks and insensitive opinions on immigration, rape and everything else controversial they decide to 'address'. When you consider that the number of voters is nowhere near as much as it could be in this country, therefore most people aren't having their say, I think people should make more of an effort to discuss these things in future rather than leave it to other people and hope for the best.

The EU is a step towards a better tomorrow in my opinion. It isn't perfect, but then we weren't exactly in a perfect situation before we joined the EU either. I'm not saying I agree with all the EU's policies, including those on free movement of people, because that would be a lie, but I am certainly saying that I back it.

And I'm not a member of a political party any more.

[andrewb]

Well the European Union as it stands is not a democratic body. It's parliament does not initiate policy - therefore when candidates stand they can have no mandate to fight for. The unelected segments of the EU initiate policy that respective nations are bound to.

We need to co-operate and allow free trade, this benefits everyone. It's a shame the EU doesn't free up trade with Africa and other nations who are desperate to trade with us. Their economies would develop much faster if this was the case, but the EU is a roadblock. What we currently have is a Union that believes in a political, federal Europe. For which I do not subscribe.

[blazey]

I don't see why people get so worked up about democracy. If people aren't willing to even vote then the system in practice cannot be considered democratic anyway.

If a 40% electorate is democratic, then I think we should be a bit more concerned about what it is exactly that we think we have right now.

I've always held the opinion that those with the expertise in areas should be the ones to make educated, well reasoned decisions. Not people who get all their information from the Daily Express.

Maybe, just maybe, we give people more liberty and choice than they should be credited.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by blazey

I don't see why people get so worked up about democracy. If people aren't willing to even vote then the system in practice cannot be considered democratic anyway.

If a 40% electorate is democratic, then I think we should be a bit more concerned about what it is exactly that we think we have right now.

I've always held the opinion that those with the expertise in areas should be the ones to make educated, well reasoned decisions. Not people who get all their information from the Daily Express.

Maybe, just maybe, we give people more liberty and choice than they should be credited.

If peoples vote doesn't count it makes people apathetic. The EU make sure it doesn't count - no mandate, no policy initiation for the MEP's we can elect. The Irish vote no on the Lisbon Treaty, so they ask them to vote again - on the same treaty.

We elect politicians to represent us, of course we should be given the choice and liberty to do that.