The EU gravy train

[blazey]

Originally Posted by andrewb

If peoples vote doesn't count it makes people complacent. The EU make sure it doesn't count - no mandate, no policy initiation for the MEP's we can elect. The Irish vote no on the Lisbon Treaty, so they ask them to vote again - on the same treaty.

We elect politicians to represent us, of course we should be given the choice and liberty to do that.

I disagree. If it was compulsory to vote, even if just to opt out, then it would be democratic. The fact that we are represented by the choice of half the population is in no way democratic.

As for Europe, most people have no idea about European politics and seem to ASSUME things more than anything. Until people are better educated about political issues, I would rather that people who had no idea just didn't vote at all rather than blind voting.

Students were encouraged to blind vote at University for the sake of trying to ensure the BNP didn't get any seats. I asked our student union whether this was better than them genuinely choosing who they thought best represented them and our president said yes. If that is what this democratic system has come to then I'd rather we didn't have the vote at all.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by blazey

I disagree. If it was compulsory to vote, even if just to opt out, then it would be democratic. The fact that we are represented by the choice of half the population is in no way democratic.

As for Europe, most people have no idea about European politics and seem to ASSUME things more than anything. Until people are better educated about political issues, I would rather that people who had no idea just didn't vote at all rather than blind voting.

Students were encouraged to blind vote at University for the sake of trying to ensure the BNP didn't get any seats. I asked our student union whether this was better than them genuinely choosing who they thought best represented them and our president said yes. If that is what this democratic system has come to then I'd rather we didn't have the vote at all.

Yes it is democratic because every single person has the chance to vote for any candidate they wish, stand as a candidate or even object to every candidate and spoil their vote. Their candidate and party has a manifesto which they can enact if given the chance.

How would you define better educated? If they agree with you? That's normally what EU federalists mean when they say people don't understand the issues. I think people do understand a very important issue - we should govern our own country by taking back powers from Europe.

[blazey]

Originally Posted by andrewb

Yes it is democratic because every single person has the chance to vote for any candidate they wish, stand as a candidate or even object to every candidate and spoil their vote. Their candidate and party has a manifesto which they can enact if given the chance.

How would you define better educated? If they agree with you? That's normally what EU federalists mean when they say people don't understand the issues. I think people do understand a very important issue - we should govern our own country by taking back powers from Europe.

It doesn't matter if they 'agree' with me or not, and when have I ever used the word 'federalist' about myself?

A lot of people I know don't even know how the EU works, many don't even know how it is constructed.

In fact, forgive me for saying this Andrew but even you have asked me about the powers of different bodies in the EU before, this academic year, and now here you are trying to persuade me that people know enough about the EU to make judgement on it?

Give me a break. It's pathetic.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by blazey

It doesn't matter if they 'agree' with me or not, and when have I ever used the word 'federalist' about myself?

A lot of people I know don't even know how the EU works, many don't even know how it is constructed.

In fact, forgive me for saying this Andrew but even you have asked me about the powers of different bodies in the EU before, this academic year, and now here you are trying to persuade me that people know enough about the EU to make judgement on it?

Give me a break. It's pathetic.

Please do tell us that you don't believe in European Federalism then.

Do tell us why people would change their mind about the EU making decisions for us rather than our own national government, if only they were to be as educated as yourself on the subject.

[blazey]

Originally Posted by andrewb

Please do tell us that you don't believe in European Federalism then.

Do tell us why people would change their mind about the EU making decisions for us rather than our own national government, if only they were to be as educated as yourself on the subject.

I didn't say I was educated enough to vote. I didn't say I had even voted.

The EU is considered 'indirectly democratic', in other words national governments elect their own representatives themselves after they are presumably democratically elected by us.

As far as 'democracy' goes, I don't believe it exists nationally or in the EU, so I can't argue that for you. Like I said, everyone should vote or nobody. It shouldn't be a choice, but a responsiblity as a member of a society to shape that society.

I believe people abuse their liberties as much as they state their claim on them. I believe people don't know what to choose for because they are not informed enough by both Europe and by national government. I place more blame on national governments for this as they have more direct communication with the public of their national state.

I believe that the people should be pushed for an opinion, but we can only expect such a thing when they are given all of the information. I believe the politicians of this country have a duty to inform people about their activities, intentions and progress... and if they did do this then government would probably be more respected, efficient and successful.

I am not the one who is here to educate people. My opinion is that politicians should be engaging the public to care about their future, instead of fear for it as they are often left in the dark. Their engagement should provide the 'bones' of the issues, which people will then go on to fill with the 'muscle', and indeed reverse this (share their opinions [the bones] which the government then build onto and add the muscle) so that we are left with an interactive body that is comprised of all people, both politician and your typical Tom, Dick and Harry down the pub or in the bus queue discussing the latest political news.

I'm not a politician, I'm one of the ordinary Tom, Dick and Harry's who is trying to educate themselves about the systems. I'm working on my own muscle and I'm not here to provide the bones for everyone else who is being neglected and ignored by their representation. That is the responsibility of those who claim their expenses in return for that service.