The Last Straw - Page 2

steeljack · 05-10-2006, 20:10

re Tinkerbelle's question anout the head covering , I remember Imam Khomeni saying in the early 80's that womens hair should be kept covered because it sends out "magic" rays which turn men into sex raged beasts.
I think a more reasonable explanation can be found in other traditions and customs from that part of the world , both Muslims and jews have dietery bans on pork , shellfish and alcohol , all very sensible with the climate in the middle east (ask anyone who has woken up on the middle of the empty quarter after a night spent with a bottle of siddiki) before we had refrigeration pork was allways iffy even in the UK ,and one bad oyster can really cause problems, Similarly the custom of eating with one hand and using the other for your personal cleanliness needs,if there is no water about to wash with, a sensible solution .
These days we are constanly being told to stay out of the sun because of skin cancer , so probably thru evolution in that part of the world people figured out it was best to stay covered up. even orthodox jewish women keep their heads covered , so the folks who drew up the rulebooks for various religions just incorporated local customs .

cashman · 05-10-2006, 20:22

its simple to me really, in certain situations i.e. driving, at airports etc, any official meeting be it health,political,etc, there is no reason to wear a burka, at the end of the day i am sure nobody enters this country through customs/passport control wearing them surely? it does not help one little bit,integration,peoples perception of them in these times, so those i saw on the news screaming about STRAW should think long and hard.

Busman747 · 05-10-2006, 20:34

I have been awaiting the opportunity to tell this little story - Willow and I were perusing the shops in the Trafford Centre when I noticed an Asian couple walking up the stairs towards us.

The man was tucking into a multi-flavoured ice cream which looked delicious - and his wife? was walking behind holding a similar treat but she was wearing a full Bhurka!!

My question is "where could she possibly go in theTrafford Centre that would allow her to enjoy her ice cream in private so she could lift her veil to eat it?"

WillowTheWhisp · 05-10-2006, 20:36

OK I've come back now with an explanation from a guy who is a sunni muslim and he says it's to do with God commanding men and women to cover their nakedness from each other. Men are required to cover from the navel to the ankles but women are required to cover more (on account of boobies) and the burkha is a sort of total commitment to this.

As for passports he says they have their photos in them just in the hijab so their faces can be seen and yes it does make driving difficult.

cashman · 05-10-2006, 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busman747

I have been awaiting the opportunity to tell this little story - Willow and I were perusing the shops in the Trafford Centre when I noticed an Asian couple walking up the stairs towards us.

The man was tucking into a multi-flavoured ice cream which looked delicious - and his wife? was walking behind holding a similar treat but she was wearing a full Bhurka!!

My question is "where could she possibly go in theTrafford Centre that would allow her to enjoy her ice cream in private so she could lift her veil to eat it?"

how about in the bogs?

Margaret Pilkington · 05-10-2006, 20:42

when we are conversing with someone, we look at their face (hence the expression 'face to face') and we get a lot of information about what is being said by being able to read facial expressions. I can understand Jack Straw wanting to be able to look at the face of the people he is seeing in his surgeries....and he says that he always makes sure that the women in question have a female chaperone with them......and that he asks them politely if they mind removing their veils....he says that so far none has objected. I don't think he is being unreasonable....and he IS right. Although the veil is thought to be part of the religious doctrine it DOES convey to the outside world that this woman wants to proclaim her difference...whether that is for religious reasons or not. If Muslims want to be different so be it.....but then they should not be offended if they are at times asked to remove the face covering so that it can be ascertained that they are indeed female.......and that they are not a security risk. (especially in the current difficult climate). The other thing is .......sometimes I think that some muslims will take offence at any suggestion that is made....and perceive it as some sort of victimisation. They don't see or accept the bigger picture.
(Please note, I said SOME muslims).

WillowTheWhisp · 05-10-2006, 20:53

This is an interesting link on the subject, especially the bits where Mohammed spoke to unveiled women.

West Ender · 05-10-2006, 21:05

In Saudi Arabia, where the women's veils don't even have slits for the eyes (they are fine muslin so they can see, even if it's rather a dark view on life), you would often see a woman lift her veil so she could look at something in, say, a shop. If there was a man, alone, around she wouldn't do it but I often saw women lift their veils, discreetly, near my husband when he was with me.

Our Arab friend Munsha, who considered himself very Westernised as he owned a pair of jeans and a pair of cowboy boots, hated the fact that his mother and sisters had to be veiled to go out. We met one of his sisters at the petrol station/garage his family owned on the road to Jeddah. She came out of the office veiled but, when she saw there was no one else around, she threw the veil off and giggled while Munsha told us he had taught her to drive, off-road in the desert where no one could see. Saudi women are forbidden to drive.

She didn't speak any English and my Arabic was confined to Salaam Aleikum and Inshallah but we got on "like a house on fire", with Munsha translating. She said she wanted to visit England and no way would she wear a veil when she did. Was she right? As far as I'm concerned she was dead right.

Ber999T · 06-10-2006, 03:10

I'm lead to believe:-

That the veil is NOT required under the "Holy" orders that muslims follow but it was in fact brought in by the Arabs.

It is by pure choice of the lady to wear.

Have seen it being worn while lady drives (waiting to attend RTC with one being worn!!)

If I had shop which had the "Remove Crash Helmet" sticker in window would I then be within rights to ask them to leave shop or remove veil????

Think Mr Straw is correct in asking them to lift it so that he can see reaction in face while talking to them. If he sees that they are not happy with his answer he can then explain why it is that way or even suggest another way of dealing with the problem that brought them to HIS surgery.................................

mani · 06-10-2006, 05:17

i'm outraged by this

if david cameron can hug a hoodie

why cant jack straw talk to a veil?

but seriously its a difficult one - ok he cant read the faces but then surely they wudnt wear a veil in the first place if they felt it was religiously ok for JavaScript to see their face

i think its a comment that will come to haunt him come election time - but i think the way he was taken off the foreign/home sec position and seemingly demoted he's lost alot of pazazz he had for politics.

WillowTheWhisp · 06-10-2006, 07:33

I can see where Jack Straw is coming from. Some non-muslims feel intimidated when in the presence of veiled muslim women. It's down to not being able to see the reaction in their faces. It can be a little unnerving.

Look how easy it is to be misunderstood on a message board when you can't see or hear the person speak. A post can be read in an entirely different way to that which was intended because there is no emotional input to go with it. (apart from the good old smilies but even then sometimes they can be misinterpreted.)

Judging how another person has reacted to what we've said is part of having conversation. Apparently some women have removed their veils whilst talking to him according to the news last night.

lettie · 06-10-2006, 07:51

Hehehe.... I was thinking about this thread last night and remembered an incident which happened to me about 3 years ago.

When I worked on the community, my caseload was roughly 90% Asian women. I worked on community for 9 years and over those years I got to know many local families. It would not be unusual for me to look after the same woman through all of her pregnancies and deliveries and I would often look after her sisters, cousins, in laws etc.

Very few women wore the veil for clinics, those who did were more than happy to remove them in the clinic because we were in a female environment.

Roughly 3 years ago I was doing some shopping in town when I was stopped and greeted by a lady in a veil. We had a lovely chat and she told me about her children and how the toddler who she was pushing in the pram was now walking and getting into everything. She asked if I was still at the hospital and how everything was going with me.. All in all we passed a pleasant few minutes then said goodbye and continued with our shopping.

To this day, I have no idea who I was talking to.

WillowTheWhisp · 06-10-2006, 08:06

That happens to me a lot Lettie - but when they're not even wearing veils! I get old customers from the bank who recognise me and we have a lovely chat and I couldn't for the life of me tell you who they are!!!

Less · 06-10-2006, 10:09

Wikipedia has a short reference to the burqa (also burka or burqua)

I bet this lass is their version of Tink's always getting into bother!

expat · 06-10-2006, 10:57

Just comming home from work, listening to the radio in the car when the U.K report came on, Big news over here,I thought the traditional dress was flat cap and clogs,good on Jack Straw I hope he doesn't back down.