The Last Straw

[Acrylic-bob]

Originally Posted by garinda

Tebbit test?

Whoosh, over my head.

When they can ride a bike to look for a job??

Which cricket team they support.

[jambutty]

I define an immigrant student Gayle as someone who has either been born abroad or born in the UK to a family that has come from abroad. I suppose that strictly speaking that is incorrect. It should be a student born to an immigrant family. However the general assumption of immigrant or ethnic minority includes those born in the UK from immigrant families. To argue semantics on this point is pointless.

Many years ago when I attended Blackburn College on a variety of courses the majority of the students (mainly young) were none British and in the main Pakistani. As most Pakistani people are Muslims it is not unreasonable to assume that most of the students at Blackburn College are Muslims.

Today as I drive past the various college premises the bulk of the students that I see are from what people call the ethnic minority. In other words the children or now grandchildren from immigrant (Pakistani) families.

An immigrant garinda is surely just the person who arrives on our shores from abroad with the intention of settling here. Any offspring are British born from immigrant families. In the early part of WWII thousands of people from Europe (Poles in particular) sought refuge in the UK from the Nazi tyranny. They integrated and stayed on after the war ended. Even some German prisoners of war stayed on and integrated into British society.

When I served at a British naval shore wireless station in South Africa during the apartheid era for nearly three years I conformed to the SA law without question whilst off station. I only sat in the seats reserved for white (blankes) on buses, trains and even benches and only drank from ‘whites only’ water fountains. In other words I and my shipmates integrated.

On station where we had four Bantu labourers/cleaners and a black cook (I can’t remember where he came from) and I and most of my shipmates treated them as one of our own. We would often spend an evening sat outside their quarters drinking a coke or tea or something (no alcohol) whilst we chatted and got to know each other. I learned a lot about the apartheid oppression and also about the bush. One of the four, called Bethel, saved me from getting bitten by a cobra. It had slithered up a drainpipe and I was about to put my hand in to grab the tail and yank it out with a view to caving its head in. Well you can’t have snakes slithering around our living quarters can you? When Bethel stopped me, he poked a stick into the drainpipe only to find that the head came out first. Somehow the snake had turned round in the narrow confines. He knew and I didn’t. He dispatched the cobra with one quick blow.

In Bahrain where I served for nearly two years at the naval base we conformed to the local laws when off station particularly during Ramadan. We didn’t walk around town smoking a fag or drinking a bottle of coke. We respected the local customs. On station was a different matter though. So why can’t the Muslims do the same in the UK?

I am not basing my argument purely on colour Gayle, although a person’s appearance is a good indication of where they come from even if it is one or two generations removed. A person’s colour is only an indication of where they come from and not who they are.

But to get back to the ‘veil’ issue. When a motorcyclist enters certain premises s/he is asked to remove the crash helmet so that s/he can be identified. You can’t sit in a job interview wearing a crash helmet. If a veiled driver is stopped by the police for something and they produce their driving license the cop will ask them to remove the veil for identification purposes. Otherwise how will he know if the license really belongs to the person showing it?

Where a crash helmet protects the head and face in the event of an accident it still hides the face and so does a veil even if you can see the eyes. Refusal to remove the veil on pseudo religious grounds is an affront to our laws and could be seen as confrontational. For me the choice is simple – either conform to our laws and requirements or do not put yourself into a situation where your religious beliefs will clash with our laws and requirements.

British laws and way of life has priority if there is a culture clash.

[Tinkerbelle]

Originally Posted by garinda

What I do find frightening is that this, and other issues, are being used as a tool to spread fear and hatred.

People are wary Rind, when we were younger the asian girls wore pants under their uniform at school, this we understood it was part of their religion, that they were unable to show their legs, fine, no-one argued about it, we respected it. BUT this is going a step to far, it's obvious that more are wearing them than ever before and to me it seems more and more are wearing these after 9/11. I have tried to educate myself on reasons why they wear them, just for my own curiosities sake but the reasons seem shrouded in mystery. As I posted, I must of heard of at least 30 different reasons. I can't help but think that with all the secrecy is it extremists showing their allegiance.

We have a known Al-Quaida supporter living close by to us and since 9/11 he has grown his beard and donned head gear that he never wore before. The women you see wearing bhurkas, when accompanied by a male, he will have a beard and head gear (sorry don't know what the official name is for the cap). What else am I to think if I can't educate myself.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I have actually been told by a muslim woman that more have chosen to wear the burkha since 9/11. For her it is a sign that she is not afraid to be seen as a devout muslim. She doesn't intend it to be confrontational and hopes that non muslims will be able to see devout people such as herself being less likely to be dangerous terrorists. As I said what we need is more open dialogue on the subject and then perhaps we'll have less fear and suspicion.

I think Jack Straw had every right to ask women if they would mind removing their veil and looks like none had objected up to now. This has grown out of all proportion to the original issue.

[UNHAPPYONE]

Even Dick Turpin Took His Mask Off In Court And Well Spose When They Hung Him He Wasnt Wearing It Either

[West Ender]

Is anyone else as fed up as I am with hearing about this and about any other perceived "insults" to Muslims? It could be argued that women walking around with their faces covered is an insult to non-Muslims who find the practice strange, unnecessary and, to some, offensive but who in the public eye would dare to say so without being branded "racist"?

Why do we make all this fuss? Why do we hear, yet again, that Muslim leaders are outraged and demanding an apology?

I'm not religious. I am, in fact, an athaeist but I was brought up Catholic and I went to a Catholic school. By the time I was 9 years old I was used to the odd taunt and sneer from other, non-Catholic, children for no other reason than that I was RC. I didn't understand why - any more than they did if the truth be known. My father wasn't Catholic and I knew some of his family had been less than happy that he married my mother, who was. It didn't make any sense to me but my dad would just say that people who were bigoted were simply ignorant, more to be pitied than blamed. I didn't go to the Press when ever I was on the receiving end of irrational sectarian prejudice. The Parish Priest didn't shout from the pulpit that his parishioners were offended. When the Iain Paisleys of this world screamed that the Pope was evil, who really gave a damn?

We on this forum, and the whole of the media, are arguing and discussing the fact that a Western man says he asks Muslim women to uncover their faces. Why on Earth is that such a big deal? Is it any worse than inviting a devout, non-drinking Baptist to have a beer or offering a Jew a bacon sandwich?

So why does this country make such a meal of everything that upsets a Muslim cleric or his flock? Why do we give them air-time? Isn't it time we started to treat Islam as just another religion, which is all it is, and to demand a bit of respect for the rest of the population as well as being expected to give respect with no return? This country should start to get its priorities right and to stop treating anything concerned with Islam as universally sacred and precious.

[park381]

How do you know it's a female behind the veil? In Blackburn today I saw several dressed in black complete with veil, even with the black dress and veil they looked so young, take a tip.............look at hands and feet.

[Bagpuss]

Originally Posted by garinda

Accusations have been made of us being racist on here recently.

Reading some of the posts and comments in this thread, even with the smiley after, they sadly aren't far off.

I'm not getting into a defensive argument about which posts. Any right minded person can clearly see the thinly veiled hatred and fear.

Lets cut the crap and get to the point, you can stick integration and multiculturism as far as it will go and I'm not smiling.

[shillelagh]

Originally Posted by garinda

Welcome back A-b.

As posted, I too agree with Jack Straw. What I do find frightening is that this, and other issues, are being used as a tool to spread fear and hatred.

Also as posted I think Muslim leaders could be doing a hell of a lot more to allay these fears.

Just a question, when does an 'immigrant' stop being called an immigrant?

Second, third, fourth generation?

I have some Irish friends who who be interested in the answer, or is it not applicable because they are white?

Does this mean im classed as an immigrant? My mum & dad came from ireland roundabout 1950.

[grannyclaret]

Life was much simpler in the 1950/60s,,all we worried about then was the teddy boys,,hippies ,,and mods and rockers....
life seems much more violent now,,,,

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Bagpuss

Lets cut the crap and get to the point, you can stick integration and multiculturism as far as it will go and I'm not smiling.

CULTURE

SOME DEFINITIONS

• Culture refers to the cumulative deposit of knowledge, experience, beliefs, values, attitudes, meanings, hierarchies, religion, notions of time, roles, spatial relations, concepts of the universe, and material objects and possessions acquired by a group of people in the course of generations through individual and group striving.
• Culture is the systems of knowledge shared by a relatively large group of people.
• Culture is communication, communication is culture.
• Culture in its broadest sense is cultivated behavior; that is the totality of a person's learned, accumulated experience which is socially transmitted, or more briefly, behavior through social learning.
• A culture is a way of life of a group of people--the behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next.
• Culture is symbolic communication. Some of its symbols include a group's skills, knowledge, attitudes, values, and motives. The meanings of the symbols are learned and deliberately perpetuated in a society through its institutions.
• Culture consists of patterns, explicit and implicit, of and for behavior acquired and transmitted by symbols, constituting the distinctive achievement of human groups, including their embodiments in artifacts; the essential core of culture consists of traditional ideas and especially their attached values; culture systems may, on the one hand, be considered as products of action, on the other hand, as conditioning influences upon further action.
• Culture is the sum of total of the learned behavior of a group of people that are generally considered to be the tradition of that people and are transmitted from generation to generation.
• Culture is a collective programming of the mind that distinguishes the members of one group or category of people from another.

I don't know you, but let's presume that your culture is different from someone say living in a multi-million poud house in Clelsea. They may go to the opera, hunt (abroad) and employ staff. Their cultural life is different from mine, and I presume yours. Just as the cultural life of someone working as a farmer and living in a croft in the Outer Hebrides would be.

We are, and always have been multi-cultural society.

If your real problem is with Britain being a multi-racial society, at least have the balls to admit it, don't hide behind the semantics of culturalism.

[Bagpuss]

Originally Posted by garinda

We are, and always have been multi-cultural society.

If your real problem is with Britain being a multi-racial society, at least have the balls to admit it, don't hide behind the semantics of culturalism.

Its a nice Politically Correct word multiculturism that hides a multitude of sins. As for your other point don't question if I have balls because yes I also have a problem with a multi-racial society but more I have a problem with a multi-religious society in particular muslims.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Bagpuss

Its a nice Politically Correct word multiculturism that hides a multitude of sins. As for your other point don't question if I have balls because yes I also have a problem with a multi-racial society but more I have a problem with a multi-religious society in particular muslims.

Fine, thanks for your honesty, which isn't after all primarily with culture, but race.

[mez]

ooooooo grannyclaret how i do agree with you ...

[West Ender]

Yes we've always been multi-racial and multi-cultural and it's what has made Britain the country it is today. The problem now is that a very vocal minority seems, to some, to be trying to impose its culture on the rest of the populace. That is worrying a lot of people and is leading to bitterness and ill-feeling.

In the mid 19th century we had a large influx of Irish, during and after the potato famine. Later that century the Jews of Eastern Europe fled to this country from persecution in their homelands. Here were just 2 groups, though there were many others, with their own ethnic and religious identities. In both cases they started their lives in England living in their own, separate communities. If you look at the demographic map of Manchester and its surrounding areas between 1850 and 1900 you will see the preponderance of Irish in Salford and Jews in Manchester, particularly Cheetham Hill; you'll see the Catholic Cathedral in Salford and the synagogue in Manchester. These people gradualy integrated with, added to and enriched our Nation.


We sometimes seem to forget that not all immigrants from Asia are Muslims. There is also the Hindu community but do we hear a constant barrage of complaint that they are treated unfairly? They have their own culture and their own religion but does it fly in your face? I went to a Hindu wedding some years ago. One of the family was wearing a gorgeous sari, had her hands decorated with henna and a bindi on her forehead and I complimented her on how nice she looked. She said, "Oh well it's nice to dress up for an occasion like this but I usually wear a suit when I'm working." That's integration.

I don't ask Muslims not to be Muslims, that would be very wrong, but I feel it's vital that they accept the norms of their adopted country and do not consider themselves, and perpetuate, a completely separate culture.