The NHS is rediculous

[bullseyebarb]

Originally Posted by Eric

"But the point I made about Moore's documentary, was not that all he said was to be accepted as "gospel," but that in societies which calim to tolerate a diversity in opinion, people like Moore are necessary. If a democracy is based on the informed opinions of the people, all sides (well perhaps not the Nazis and the Klan) must be allowed to state their points of view. There is no truth in politics, altho' politicians claim that they act only on the truth, in order to protect the truth.

To hold the opinion that free access to medical care, in a prosperous, democratic nation, should be a right is not a subversive opinion; and I know that it is an opinion that many of your fellow citizens hold. Having a "social safety net" is not a threat to democracy or to an economy based on free enterprise. It is merely a commitment to share the national wealth a little more equitably.

Diversity of opinion is wonderful. However, that isn't really Moore's gig. He goes into his projects with a template and a mission to craft a specific outcome. His edits are designed to meet those ends. He's dishonest.

You are very ill-informed if you believe the U.S. has no social safety net. Good grief, we are paying through the nose for it! As to your own superior notions of the "right" to healthcare...... Canada's Healthcare System is Bad Medicine by Glenn Woiceshyn -- Capitalism Magazine Yes, the U.S. has private healthcare - but it is no longer a free market system. That's very problematic for us. Hopefully, we'll be able to get back to that at some point, rather than going further into the socialist hole.

As to your comments on Iraq. This is not the thread for that. Start one, if you wish. However, this subject has been discussed ad nauseum on AccyWeb.

[Stanaccy]

Originally Posted by bullseyebarb

Yes, the U.S. has private healthcare - but it is no longer a free market system. That's very problematic for us. Hopefully, we'll be able to get back to that at some point, rather than going further into the socialist hole.

I'm sorry, I hope I misunderstood your quote. You actually want healthcare to be run as a private free market enterprise?????

So if you are poor and sick tough sh*t?

And what is this cr*p about "going further into the socialist hole". This is aactually socialism as it is meant, SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY!! Making sure those that need hospital or medical care receive it regardless of their finacial status. I would rather pay taxes and make sure my children are cared for than have your system of private medicare and worry if their particular illness is covered.

[bullseyebarb]

Originally Posted by Stanaccy

I'm sorry, I hope I misunderstood your quote. You actually want healthcare to be run as a private free market enterprise?????

So if you are poor and sick tough sh*t?

And what is this cr*p about "going further into the socialist hole". This is aactually socialism as it is meant, SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY!! Making sure those that need hospital or medical care receive it regardless of their finacial status. I would rather pay taxes and make sure my children are cared for than have your system of private medicare and worry if their particular illness is covered.

You did not misunderstand. I came to live in the U.S. when healthcare actually was a free market enterprise, just like everything else. I have also lived under a socialist system, (U.K.), as well as the hodgepodge private/public system the U.S. now has. Did you not read the link I posted?

[Stanaccy]

Yes I read the link, although taking it seriously stopped when I read

"The moral code underlying Canada’s healthcare system can be inferred from how it is practiced. Everyone has free and equal access to healthcare providers (which naturally generates a lot of demand). Providers bill the government for services rendered. Government pays providers with the money it extorts via highly progressive taxation. Government has the power to restrict healthcare spending (which logically leads to long waiting lists and wait times)."

Sorry as soon as I read spin doctor speach like "extorts via highly progressive taxation" I sort of switch off. Especially as I read it, it seems to say "stuff the poor they can die even though we have the expertise to treat them."

I thought the US was a Christian country, or is like everything else you just choose the bits you like!!! What about the good samaritan? or the beatitudes? Or do they not fit in to righteous capitalism?

Oh and also just one thing, Cuba's life expectancy is about the same as the US so seems they are doing something right, regardless of how rich the country is.

[Eric]

The majority of Canadians approve of the Health Care System ... altho' they are prepared to see changes that improve it. What we will not allow govt. to do is to undermine the provision of health care, paid for out of tax revenue. The last Royal Commission on our health care system found that, even tho' improvements could be made, it was essentially sound, and supported Canadians.

A lot of money comes from taxes on cigs, gas (oops, petrol), and booze. The essentials of life, eh.

And, yes, the govt. can restrict health care spending, but any govt. which attacked the system would face years serving, not as govt. but as part of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.

Simply put, the NHS in England and OHIP in Ontario make sure that a person does not suffer or die because he can't afford care. Being poor sucks, but it is not a capital crime.

[WillowTheWhisp]

How awful it would be to live in a society which didn't care about the health of those less fortunate. Is it a crime to be ill? What of someone born with a health problem who cannot work and cannot afford the (loaded) insurance premiums which probably wouldn't cover them for any health care which was connected to the illness they were born with.

Or should be bring back the workhouses?

If you think the beggars we have on our streets now are a problem just imagine what it would be like if we had a situation where people couldn't work and couldn't afford health care which might actually get them fit for work.

[Ianto.W.]

Originally Posted by jimmi5bellies

Excellent news for you. I was put on priority visit from the Occupational Therapist in January after the crash ........ IM STILL WAITING !

Sorry to hear about that my dear, I know from my own experience it is very frustrating when things do not come when you need them. I first put in for help 3 years ago this was out of the social fund, after waiting 2 years I received a telephone call with an offer, stupidly I turned it down as I felt ok at the time as I had recovered from that particular operation, but alas it struck again this time leaving me permanently disabled. I would give all I own on this earth to be as I was 16 years ago, and have no need of these aids. The object of my last post was to try to inject into the debate the advantages of having an NHS and a Welfare Sate that will look after you in the long run, rich or poor, contributor or non contributor. Yes it is still the envy of the world, in my humble opinion.

[jimmi5bellies]

Hi Ianto, yes i agree with you on that point. Im glad i dont live in a country where you have to pay for all medical expenses. Id be up poo creek without a paddle, lol.

[Eric]

The govt. of the Province of Saskatchewan (no, you don't have to be able to pronounce it) had a great idea. Sask. is the birthplace of the healthcare system in Canada. Tommy Douglas (largely unknown except as Keifer Sutherland's grandfather) is recognized as one of those rarities, a completely honest politician. He brought in medicare over the protest of the doctors, who actually went on strike. Anyway, back to the point. Every year each resident of the province receives an itemized account of what his/her health care cost during the year. So, if you visited emrg. once it would show what that would have cost if you had to pay for it yourself. And, if you had complicated heart surgery it would show that cost too. It does bring to everyone's attention what a great benefit the system is.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I didn't know he was Kiefer Sutherland's grandfather - on his mother's side presumably?

[Ianto.W.]

Originally Posted by Eric

The govt. of the Province of Saskatchewan (no, you don't have to be able to pronounce it) had a great idea. Sask. is the birthplace of the healthcare system in Canada. Tommy Douglas (largely unknown except as Keifer Sutherland's grandfather) is recognized as one of those rarities, a completely honest politician. He brought in medicare over the protest of the doctors, who actually went on strike. Anyway, back to the point. Every year each resident of the province receives an itemized account of what his/her health care cost during the year. So, if you visited emrg. once it would show what that would have cost if you had to pay for it yourself. And, if you had complicated heart surgery it would show that cost too. It does bring to everyone's attention what a great benefit the system is.

That must qualify me for the title of six million dollar man, I dread to think what has been spent on yours truly over the years, there must be a great deal of money wasted on sending these figures out better not tell our NHS to adopt that one.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

I didn't know he was Kiefer Sutherland's grandfather - on his mother's side presumably?

Yes ... Donald Sutherland married Tommy's daughter ... But Tommy is known in Canada, by people of all political persuasions, as one of the truly great Canadians of the last century, a man who was unassailably honest in politics and dedicated to working for the benefit of all Canadians. It was said of him, that in public and private life, he never lied. Rare in anyone, almost unbelievable in a politician.

[bullseyebarb]

Nothing like getting your knickers in a twist over things you don't understand or know nothing about - such as economics and free market capitalism. FMC has provided a better standard of living for more people around the world than any other system. It brings us competition, choice and a wide array of wonderful goods and services in all price ranges. Whilst the U.S. healthcare system has not been a fully free market for quite some time, it nonetheless remains amazingly inventive and flexible. It would be a lot less expensive, however, if the consumers were back in the mix.

A huge number of Americans are already covered by some form of government sponsored health insurance, including Medicaid, (for the poor). For those who don't qualify for same and cannot purchase private insurance or afford large out of pocket expenses, we have free facilities, such as the Good News Clinic in my own community. Medical, dental, eyes, lab work, X-Rays, drugs, etc., Founded by the wonderful Dr. Sam Poole, a retired cardiologist. Currently, we have 44 dentists, 30 physicians and 100 volunteers, who willingly give of their time for some portion of each month. Dr. Poole refused to accept any federal money to run the clinic, (everything is privately donated). As he so wisely said, "Federal aid not only had strings attached but also ropes and chains." I'd go one further and say that federal money can also be very corrupting. Our medical and business communities do have a moral foundation. There are always exceptions to this rule, of course, but I find them to be in the minority.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Any organisation dependant on charity is in a rather precarious position though isn't it?

[bullseyebarb]

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

Any organisation dependant on charity is in a rather precarious position though isn't it?

Not over here. We are very generous.