The primary duty of every Government-Trident

[gynn]

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

As of July last year:-

Country Troops

• United States 62,000
• Britain 9.000
• Germany 4,050
• France 3,160
• Canada 2,800
• Italy 2,795
• Poland 2,000
• Netherlands 1,770
• Australia 1,090
• Romania 1,025
• Spain 780
• Turkey 730
• Denmark 700
• Belgium 510
• Norway 485
• Bulgaria 470
• Sweden 430
• Czech Republic 340
• Other nations: 2,378TOTALS: 96,513

30 July 2009, Thursday

Thanks, Dave.

I think the figures prove that the other countries are taking the p*ss out of us.

[Barrie Yates]

Originally Posted by Mancie

But the RAF don't escape the cuts..according to the Times:

The Con-Dems proposed cuts of 36 billion in the defence budget include reductions in Tornado F3 air defence aircraft and Harrier GR7s, and early phasing out of Nimrod MR1/MR2 surveillance aircraft. A number of RAF bases will be earmarked for closure.

The F3 is an air defence variant - GR is the one that would carry out any attacks. Harriers?, they were already being phased out by the previous lot - JSF is the intended replacement I think. Nimrod is a maritime surveillance. Typhoon, along with the JSF (if we get it), will take over the front line role.
RAF bases have been closing since I joined in '61 - post National Service.
On TV last night learnt that UK Air Defernce is now centred at RAF Scampton - it used to be a V-Bomber Base (Vulcans, I think).
Change has been a way of life in the RAF since Pontius was a Pilate. Changing threats, changing equipment and technology. Have not always agreed with it, but that is the way it has gone.

[Gordon Booth]

Originally Posted by Barrie Yates

But why the Trident System. The RAF are capable of hitting any target from an aircraft at significantly lower cost of transport vehicle than a Trident armed submarine. They can also do it more accurately with Laser Designation.

Each Vanguard carries 16 missiles with up to 160 independantly targeted warheads. They are undetectable and can be activated whatever happened to the UK. They can operate, unseen, over 70%of the Earths surface. The RAF doesn't have the aircraft capable of delivering (if they survived to deliver) this sort of defence. Trident and its warheads,once launched, is unstoppable unless we self-destruct. And a nuclear warhead doesn't need Laser Designation-it just needs to get close.
You can't rely on a defence system which, while cheap, may not be effective. You might as well save the money and become a Lib/Dem.

[Gordon Booth]

Originally Posted by gynn

I think the figures prove that the other countries are taking the p*ss out of us.

The deaths due to enemy action tell you a lot, gynn!
Troops deployed Deaths to date % Losses
USA 62000 935 1.5%
UK 9000 292 3.2%
Germany 0nly-4050 33 0.8%
France Only-3160 38 1.2%
Canada Only 2800 But 129 4.6%
Italy Only 2795 20 0.7%
(but they don't really like fighting,do they?)

Denmark ONLY 700 BUT 30 4.28%

Some of our NATO allies have lost more men to suicides,friendly fire and accidents (oh and lightening strikes )than to the enemy.

So can you work out whos troops are in Helmand and Kandahar Provinces and who are staying in the quiet parts, having quite a good time apparently? You bet you can!

[Barrie Yates]

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

Each Vanguard carries 16 missiles with up to 160 independantly targeted warheads. They are undetectable and can be activated whatever happened to the UK. They can operate, unseen, over 70%of the Earths surface. The RAF doesn't have the aircraft capable of delivering (if they survived to deliver) this sort of defence. Trident and its warheads,once launched, is unstoppable unless we self-destruct. And a nuclear warhead doesn't need Laser Designation-it just needs to get close.
You can't rely on a defence system which, while cheap, may not be effective. You might as well save the money and become a Lib/Dem.

And who are we going to, or be prepared to, use Trident against - Zimbabwe, Sudan, Morocco, Palestine, Iran, Afghanistan, Eire???????????

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Barrie Yates

And who are we going to, or be prepared to, use Trident against - Zimbabwe, Sudan, Morocco, Palestine, Iran, Afghanistan, Eire???????????

well i can do a yankee outa that list.

[Gordon Booth]

Originally Posted by Barrie Yates

And who are we going to, or be prepared to, use Trident against - Zimbabwe, Sudan, Morocco, Palestine, Iran, Afghanistan, Eire???????????

Don't forget, Trident can deliver 1 warhead only(including non-nuclear) so it could be used(in self defence!) to take out one nuclear missile site, 1 hostile air base or any other single target.
Against who? Who will threaten us with a nuclear strike or even an overwhelming conventional attack in 10/20 years time? We couldn't even defend the Falklands now! Who may decide to use the UK to send a message to the world?
We don't know but probably not Eire! But Iran, a Taliban controlled Pakistan, the future Chinese Empire, a new Russia rich on oil and gas?
When the water, minerals, food, oil, gas and space begin to run out in the near future who knows who may decide they need the British Isles but not the British?
At least we would be able to say 'Don't bother, we're not worth the cost.'

[JCB]

Originally Posted by steeljack

Yep , I'm thinking all those folks, (Men Women and Children) including lots of young Brits who spent years in Japanese POW camps during the mid 40s will share your views, think most of them will say that the A-Bombs saved their lives .

If it is correct , why did the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki help end WW2 ? It was their sheer horror .

If the countries that now possess even more destructive nuclear weapons , and more countries come to possess them , there will sure come a time when some nutter uses them . If this accelerates into a full-scale nuclear war it will be good-bye planet earth .

I'm thinking of all the folks of future generations who inhabit the earth .

[Gordon Booth]

Don't forget, nuclear weapons, in responsable hands, are a deterent not a weapon. No sane nation would ever use them to attack, only to defend! But if it hadn't been for them we'd probably be speaking Russian now, if we were speaking at all. The USA would never have got into a conventional war to defend Europe but the MAD policy ensured they didn't need to.
But INSANE nations,rogue states, unbalanced leaders? You haven't enough fingers to count them on, even at the moment and some are already going nuclear. In the future? We need to be able to say 'Please don't use that thing on us or we'll get upset'.

[cashman]

what determines responsible hands is debatable! whats beyond doubt is the fact that real nutters try consistently n always will, to develop nuclear weapons, so saying that us or any reasonably civilized nation should not have em as a deterrent is naive to me.

[Mancie]

I'd say all this debate means nothing.. fact is that defence will be cut by over 30% .this means cuts in troops on the ground,the Navy,the RAF every area of defence...these cuts are not sort term and not high profile..they are typical cuts in defence the Tories have always done..and may only be realised when this country comes under serious threat .. by that time it could be to late for any re-arming.

[Boeing Guy]

Cuts.... Mancie you forget the big one in 2006 by your lord and master Saint Tony.
Yes the then Labour government decided in their wisdom to retire the Royal Navy's fleet of Sea Harriers, the last one being decommisioned on 29th March 2006. This was done to make space for the JSF, which was due in 2012.
Being a Aviator and taking to those in the forces about this I will not repeat what the nick name for JSF is, but the middle word is not Strike, it rhymes with height.

So this has left our Royal Navy, the greatest Navy in the world with out Air support. Now that is okay for anywhere that is land locked and we can get jets in, but what would we do if we had to defend the Falklands again????
So HMS Ark Royal, HMS Illustrious and HMS Invincible, which was mothballed by the same people, have no aircraft and therefore are about as much use a a chocolate fireguard.

70 years ago this month, Britain would have been invaded but for the air superiority we managed to keep over the Luftwaffe, I think this is a bit more important than the debate about Trident.
But of course it knocks Labour and we cannot have that can we.

[Boeing Guy]

Oh and one other thing, who broke the covernent with our armed forces? Your beloved Labour.
So Mancie I await your usual intelligent reply.

[Mancie]

Originally Posted by Boeing Guy

Cuts.... Mancie you forget the big one in 2006 by your lord and master Saint Tony.
Yes the then Labour government decided in their wisdom to retire the Royal Navy's fleet of Sea Harriers, the last one being decommisioned on 29th March 2006. This was done to make space for the JSF, which was due in 2012.
Being a Aviator and taking to those in the forces about this I will not repeat what the nick name for JSF is, but the middle word is not Strike, it rhymes with height.

So this has left our Royal Navy, the greatest Navy in the world with out Air support. Now that is okay for anywhere that is land locked and we can get jets in, but what would we do if we had to defend the Falklands again????
So HMS Ark Royal, HMS Illustrious and HMS Invincible, which was mothballed by the same people, have no aircraft and therefore are about as much use a a chocolate fireguard.

70 years ago this month, Britain would have been invaded but for the air superiority we managed to keep over the Luftwaffe, I think this is a bit more important than the debate about Trident.
But of course it knocks Labour and we cannot have that can we.

I'll admit I'm not really clued up about any of our armed forces as regard to what we need or which section of the forces are more effective than others.. but I do know that this Government have stated they will make cuts across the board of 30% in the current spending.. that is 30% less spending than the Labour Government...I'm abit confused by your reckoning Labour did not spend enough on the RAF and even made cuts..but the latest proposals mean cuts in the RAF..are you defending further cuts?..

[Mancie]

Originally Posted by Boeing Guy

Oh and one other thing, who broke the covernent with our armed forces? Your beloved Labour.
So Mancie I await your usual intelligent reply.

What are you on about?.. I hope you take a few days off from flying when you've been on the juice!