The Tories

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by cmonstanley

even the torygraph hates this government and wants to tell the truth.Ministers accused of energy bill cut 'con' as £5-per-household saving will be paid back with interest - Telegraph ive just watched boris on the parliament channel on mayor question time . he didnt answer one question he dilly dallied mumbling a load of crap.

I've heard it all now, somebody sitting around all day watching the Parliamentary channel, what a sad pathetic little man you really are get a life and for christs, sake stop boring the tits of me

[Neil]

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

As far as the fire service response Retlaw I'd be inclined to note your opinion being as you're an old timer. But since your active days there's been many & varied technological & efficiency changes, added to that as you state they may come from various stations & according to the report that was the case.

I think if I was working for them and facing large cuts to manpower I would be turning it into a major incident with every man and his dog called out trying to prove that number of people were required.

All those people may have been needed but the response has certainly given people an excuse to say they need all the people they have

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by Neil

I think if I was working for them and facing large cuts to manpower I would be turning it into a major incident with every man and his dog called out trying to prove that number of people were required.

All those people may have been needed but the response has certainly given people an excuse to say they need all the people they have

Oh yeah...can't you just hear the operator.....

Ring..Ring..

'which emergency do you require'

'erm.. all of them i guess, a roof has collapsed in a theatre with over 700 people inside'

'oh and how many are still inside'

'erm.. dunno, there's a bit of screaming and scrambling and some guy just went past me covered in blood holding his unconscious son in his arms'

'well could you go back inside and count how many are trapped, see if they need digging out, while you are there could you check if there is any damage to the myriad of electrical systems within the theatre that may cause a fire. Could you also count the number of people injured and needing medical attention? When you've done all that call me back and I'll be able to send the correct number of fire engines and ambulances.'

[DaveinGermany]

Originally Posted by Neil

All those people may have been needed but the response has certainly given people an excuse to say they need all the people they have

And therein lies the problem, all these people require paying, regardless of participation, on duty, laid off sick etc, etc. Added to this there's all the support staff who sit in an office but don't provide physical hands on action, eating up resources that could be better employed.

The Germans have a regular fire service but for a Country about three times the size of UK their "Paid" manpower isn't anywhere near comparable to UK. The practicality behind this is due to the Germans maintaining, training & investing in an exceptionally good volunteer force of fire fighters functioning on the same principal as the UKs RNLI. "Freiwilligen Feuerwher" can be found in virtually ever town & village & are supported, sponsored & integrated into the major framework of the German fire service with regular training & advancement of their volunteers.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

And therein lies the problem, all these people require paying, regardless of participation, on duty, laid off sick etc, etc. Added to this there's all the support staff who sit in an office but don't provide physical hands on action, eating up resources that could be better employed.

The Germans have a regular fire service but for a Country about three times the size of UK their "Paid" manpower isn't anywhere near comparable to UK. The practicality behind this is due to the Germans maintaining, training & investing in an exceptionally good volunteer force of fire fighters functioning on the same principal as the UKs RNLI. "Freiwilligen Feuerwher" can be found in virtually ever town & village & are supported, sponsored & integrated into the major framework of the German fire service with regular training & advancement of their volunteers.

Interesting ... same over here too. This unit fighting the big fire in my neighbourhood was manned by volunteers from Kingston's west end:

[Eric]

Originally Posted by jaysay

boring the tits of me

Now now Jaysay ... that should be "man boobs" ...

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

And therein lies the problem, all these people require paying, regardless of participation, on duty, laid off sick etc, etc. Added to this there's all the support staff who sit in an office but don't provide physical hands on action, eating up resources that could be better employed.

The Germans have a regular fire service but for a Country about three times the size of UK their "Paid" manpower isn't anywhere near comparable to UK. The practicality behind this is due to the Germans maintaining, training & investing in an exceptionally good volunteer force of fire fighters functioning on the same principal as the UKs RNLI. "Freiwilligen Feuerwher" can be found in virtually ever town & village & are supported, sponsored & integrated into the major framework of the German fire service with regular training & advancement of their volunteers.

There is a different mind set amongst the English about volunteering.
Volunteers have bearly always been shat on or their services abused.
Its not even easy to keep a retained fire service, and they get paid a retaining fee, and pay for drill nights and for turnouts.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Retlaw

There is a different mind set amongst the English about volunteering.
Volunteers have bearly always been shat on or their services abused.
Its not even easy to keep a retained fire service, and they get paid a retaining fee, and pay for drill nights and for turnouts.

Too many people here expect someone else to do it all for them while they sit in front of the TV or in the pub.

They days of scrubbing your doorstep and sweeping the footpath outside your house are gone. We have become a lazy society.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Some of society is lazy.....some isn't.
It may be a generational thing. Those of us who were born in the 'baby boomer' years are more likely to volunteer services and time.....but who wants an arthritic sixty something with a dicky ticker as a firefighter?

[Margaret Pilkington]

There is also an element of 'I pay part of my council tax to fund these services' in the equation too.

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by Neil

Too many people here expect someone else to do it all for them while they sit in front of the TV or in the pub.

They days of scrubbing your doorstep and sweeping the footpath outside your house are gone. We have become a lazy society.

I'm totally confused by that comment

Are you saying its lazy NOT to volunteer to take someones livelihood away or are you saying its lazy to expect someone to do something they are paid to do?

We all know how you give your free time, doing something that you are passionate about voluntarily, do you know many people that are passionate about volunteering to man the tills at Tesco or cleaning the sewers. How about people volunteering to do the job that feeds your family?

In the case of emergency services, what I want are trained professionals to be paid accordingly from a central fund raised by fair taxation to save my life if needed, and I'd rather have too many than too few, and if that means cutting aid to spacefaring nations so be it.

And what you seem to have missed here is that despite the 'alleged' outrageous number of emergency services that turned up, (for what was originally thought to be a major disaster), they still had to commandeer 3 London buses to transport the injured to hospital.

[Guinness]

Sorry to double post but I feel very strongly about our emergency services...

On this particular night, the emergency services got it perfect. They had enough firemen to ensure that everyone got out and the building was secured from further structural damage and fire, the ambulances ensured that the critical and severe were treated without loss of life, the police ensured that the area was secured.

A potential catastrophe was averted because of skilled, trained, dedicated people.

What absolute fools they were for doing their job..the gutter press and associated bufoons were so quick to jump on the fact that so many resources attended..it didn't matter that nobody had died... that they had done their job so damn well...that they had all the bases covered...

Nobody reports good news so lets find the negatives...so the tory press barons once again use 'numbers'....and the gullible amongst us fall hook, line and sinker yet again!

[cmonstanley]

the thing is the german companies work in cohesion with their employees. british employers wouldnt let their workers volunteer. you would be classed as a liability. thats the difference with British and German society.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Neil

Too many people here expect someone else to do it all for them while they sit in front of the TV or in the pub.

They days of scrubbing your doorstep and sweeping the footpath outside your house are gone. We have become a lazy society.

Typical right-wing claptrap ... the implied argument, if you can call it that, is so spurious and illogical that it is hardly worth addressing. Blame the poor for their poverty; blame the unemployed for the lack of decent, well-paid work.

According to tories there is a "level playing field" out there, and anyone with enough gumption can succeed What a crock of horse manure. Let the privileged few export good jobs to places where labor is cheap and unprotected. Let them hide their profits in tax shelters. And then blame the plebs for not being able to make a go of it flipping burgers. Tories load the dice in favour of the already rich. They create a diillusioned underclass, and then blame them for continually crapping out. If you chant "the poor and unemployed are lazy" long enough, even many of the poor and umemployed come to believe it.

[DaveinGermany]

Originally Posted by cmonstanley

the thing is the german companies work in cohesion with their employees. british employers wouldnt let their workers volunteer. you would be classed as a liability. thats the difference with British and German society.

You're slipping into "Wicked Tories" mode again, by inferring all t'mill owners (British employers?) wouldn't let their people volunteer. One word for you my friend "Territorials" or as Dave & his mates are now titling them, "The Army reserve" not forgetting the RAF & Navy reserve.

While containing, as the title states eligible ex-service personnel (reservists), there are also quite a few volunteers who have a day job & are willing participants in deployments with the blessings of their employers so that statement doesn't cut it.

And if the Military can train & deploy "Civvie Volunteers", surely the emergency services are capable of following a similar line?