The Tories

[Margaret Pilkington]

John, I was so absorbed in my nursing that everything else took second place(and that includes family).
I didn't have time for ploitics, and I didn't feel that I could relate to any of the major parties.......and guess socialism was dying on its uppers anyway(true socialism that is...caring for people).

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

John, I was so absorbed in my nursing that everything else took second place(and that includes family).
I didn't have time for ploitics, and I didn't feel that I could relate to any of the major parties.......and guess socialism was dying on its uppers anyway(true socialism that is...caring for people).

And that never worked either, or maybe I'm wrong, I remember them building a wall across Berlin, I'm sure it was to keep us decedent westerners out of their socialist utopia, I seem to remember people being smuggled into East Berlin, so they too could share in the trappings of true socialism, or have I got mixed up somewhere

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by jaysay

And that never worked either, or maybe I'm wrong, I remember them building a wall across Berlin, I'm sure it was to keep us decedent westerners out of their socialist utopia, I seem to remember people being smuggled into East Berlin, so they too could share in the trappings of true socialism, or have I got mixed up somewhere

Yes, and it's funny how so many ardent socialists in this country (including many on the left wing of the Labour party) were beguiled by the propaganda of the USSR into believing that it was a socialist utopia. They're quiet enough now...almost as quiet as all those across the political spectrum who believed that we should enter the euro because it was the future!

[Margaret Pilkington]

Steve, there are some politicians who even now would still take us into the Euro.
The single curency has proved to be a shackle....it has tied those with strong economies to those with weak economies...and this was done not for economic reasons, but for political ones. It didn't lift those with a weak economy, but it dragged down those whose econonies were stronger
A huge experiment....and one which was doomed from the outset.

[Wynonie Harris]

...so, if they were so wrong about the Euro, could they be be similarly wrong about the desirability of the EU as a whole?

Perhaps they should put it to the test with the referendum they all promised us?

[MargaretR]

A free trade area was evolving into a United Sates of Europe, and has failed at the monetary union stage.

The ones who want an eventual world (totalitarian) government will cling to the concept no matter what, and only a 'European Spring' upheaval will put them off the track towards that 'New World Order'

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Yes, and it's funny how so many ardent socialists in this country (including many on the left wing of the Labour party) were beguiled by the propaganda of the USSR into believing that it was a socialist utopia. They're quiet enough now...almost as quiet as all those across the political spectrum who believed that we should enter the euro because it was the future!

And it was funny how so many ardent nationalists in the UK (including many on the right wing of the Conservative party) were beguiled by the porpaganda of NAZI Germany into believing it was a national socialist utopia .... Maybe it had something to do with the trains running on time

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Steve, there are some politicians who even now would still take us into the Euro.
The single curency has proved to be a shackle....it has tied those with strong economies to those with weak economies...and this was done not for economic reasons, but for political ones. It didn't lift those with a weak economy, but it dragged down those whose econonies were stronger
A huge experiment....and one which was doomed from the outset.

Ok, Milton Friedman I aint, but I never really understood the single currency ... or, more precisely, why it was deemed necessary The US and Canada seem to do ok by accepting each other's currency ... I can go down to Syracuse, NY and spend my $CAD with no problem. And it was no problem even before NAFTA. But part of what you say I don't completely agree with. The strogest economy in Europe is that of Germany ... (looks like the sonsabitches finally won). It doesn't seem to have been "dragged down." I read somewhere the other day (can't remember exactly where; so, can't put in a link ... gettin' old the memory is going) that the German will be one of only two major economies in the welt that will grow by over 2%. I suspect that the Naz ... oops, sorry, "Germans" will help bail out Greece; but, I don't believe they are being altruistic. I have a feeling they will make a buck out of it. And if Greece defaults, the Germans will no doubt send in the duns ... a little more civilized than sending in the Wehrmacht, but then, we live in a more politically correct age

[Margaret Pilkington]

Eric.......the Germans may bail out weaker members but the electors don't like the Greeks or any other nationality dipping into their pockets for money.
I think that even though the German economy isn't perhaps as weak as some of the other members, there will come a point when the weaker members will have a detrimental effect on the economy. Even though Germany is a stronger economy.....I am sure I read that economic growth is not going to be as strong as was first forecast.
If Greece opts for an orderly default, and those who are currently carrying Greek debt get a 50% 'haircut'....how do the germans make money on the back of something like that? I'm not being 'fly' when I ask that question.......I really don't know how it is done and would like some enlightenment.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Eric.......the Germans may bail out weaker members but the electors don't like the Greeks or any other nationality dipping into their pockets for money.
I think that even though the German economy isn't perhaps as weak as some of the other members, there will come a point when the weaker members will have a detrimental effect on the economy. Even though Germany is a stronger economy.....I am sure I read that economic growth is not going to be as strong as was first forecast.
If Greece opts for an orderly default, and those who are currently carrying Greek debt get a 50% 'haircut'....how do the germans make money on the back of something like that? I'm not being 'fly' when I ask that question.......I really don't know how it is done and would like some enlightenment.

When I need enlightenment, I consult my economic advisor:



Here she is ... contemplating abstruse economic theories.

[Margaret Pilkington]

love the pic Eric.
ask your financial adviser what he/she thinks........I bet she has more idea that the current economic advisers.

[jaysay]

As Wyn knows I've always supported being in Europe, for trading purposes, I think the only good thing did during his 13 years as Chancellor them PM was NOT taking us into the single currency, but he did sign the European constitution without a promised referendum. A few years down the road, just like some Tory MPs I'm beginning to wonder if GB plc, would be better on our own, now whether this will happen in this Parliament I don't know, because the Lib/dems are pro Europe, but with so many countries now falling foul of the single currency, and even though we have no part of it, we seem to be getting suckered into help with the bail out, its time to cut and run

[Margaret Pilkington]

we never got a chance to say whether we preferred to go it alone...and I don't think we ever will. The politicians know the answer to the question and they don't much like it.......so they don't ask...and don't listen if anyone mentions The EU and their insidious creeping laws....which everyone else ignores, but we (daft sods) follow to the letter...to the detriment of society.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

we never got a chance to say whether we preferred to go it alone...and I don't think we ever will. The politicians know the answer to the question and they don't much like it.......so they don't ask...and don't listen if anyone mentions The EU and their insidious creeping laws....which everyone else ignores, but we (daft sods) follow to the letter...to the detriment of society.

If everybody obeyed the rules it would be fine but we are the only saps (the British stiff upper lip and fair play) who do

[Eric]

Originally Posted by jaysay

As Wyn knows I've always supported being in Europe, for trading purposes, I think the only good thing did during his 13 years as Chancellor them PM was NOT taking us into the single currency, but he did sign the European constitution without a promised referendum. A few years down the road, just like some Tory MPs I'm beginning to wonder if GB plc, would be better on our own, now whether this will happen in this Parliament I don't know, because the Lib/dems are pro Europe, but with so many countries now falling foul of the single currency, and even though we have no part of it, we seem to be getting suckered into help with the bail out, its time to cut and run

I think that a referendum would be a great idea ... they can be scary when so much is on the line. We've had a couple in the last 30 years, both in Quebec, about independence for French Canada. The future of our country was on the line; but, we weathered the storm, and in the last Federal election, the speratistes were soundly trounced. But the vote had to be taken to clear the air so that Canada could get on with the business of taking over the world I think your govt. has to realize that they can't keep the lid on something that many citizens ... the important ones, the ones with brains that they use for something other than reading the tv listings ... want to have cleared up. Hard line govts. in the Middle East have found that, however restrictive they are, they can't stop their citizens from getting at least some of the things they want. Govts. have to eventually listen to the people.

What a lot of us outside Europe are concerned about is the effect of the ailing Euro on the world economy. Even here in Canada (and along with the Krauts, we have the only economy which will have over 2% growth this year) the govt. is concerned about the fallout.