The value of public funded art

[cashman]

well fer me if various stuff around the country (not just Hyndburn) funds can not be directed anywhere else, whats the goverment gonna do with this cash? Flush it down the loo? I don't think so, never heard such crap in me life.

[Gayle]

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob

Your comments and scruples strike me as nothing more than excuses, Gayle, which become ever flimsier and more threadbare with every repetition. Sadly, I do not think that I will be alone in holding that opinion.

I have not made 'excuses' I have answered your questions, if you don't like the answers that is not my fault.


So basically you have two choices, I will leave it up to you.

Either I stop posting on here completely and refuse to answer questions/accusations.

Or

I answer every accusation/question with honesty, which is what I have tried to do so far.

I think i'm now in the situation where I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.


It's your choice.

[Margaret Pilkington]

If the students who are involved in this event, read the comments....I feel that their response would be 'whatever'.

And if they cannot stand up to adverse comments, then they are going to have a tough time in the real world aren't they?

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

I love the attitude of 'If we can get some money get it. Now, what can we blow it on?'.

The attitude within the civil service machinery generally seems to be to pitch for as much money as possible and then think what to spend it on. Conversely, projects are awarded arbitrary sums of money without any costings or consumer research or even basic performance standards of success or failure.

Part of the problem lies in the system of taking money away from departments if they don't spend their entire budget allocation for that year so meaningless projects at the end of the year are approved just to make sure that next year's funding remains the same.

It would be more sensible just to agree that anything which was absolutely essential for any department to fulfil its function would not be refused.

[Gordon Booth]

Originally Posted by Gayle

I answer every accusation/question with honesty, which is what I have tried to do so far.

I think i'm now in the situation where I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

Gayle, if you really believe that what you're doing is right then stand up for it! Good for you. You obviously have the backing of the council so you're not alone.
BUT! Not many threads have generated as many posts as this one and virtually all have been hostile. It may be that most of them are from 'Grumpy Old Men' (and 'Women') with little or no response from the younger generations but they are the ones who have been paying Taxes all their lives!
So go on the attack! Ask these Miserable old Devils( I include myself in that group) what THEY want and if they got it would they join in?
Also ASK the younger folks what THEY want, don't present these events as a 'fait accompli'.Surely one of the most important parts of your job should be involving the town in the decision making as well as the presentation?

[Acrylic-bob]

Gayle, whether you continue as a member of Accyweb, or not, is of no import to me whatsoever. You must make your own decisions on how to occupy your time, like the rest of us mortals. Passing the buck, as in "So basically you have two choices, I will leave it up to you." and "It's your choice." simply will not do. Either you wish to explain and defend the decisions you make as a public servant, or you don't. Clearly, it is up to you, not me, or anyone else for that matter.

You claim to have answered our questions. And, in part, you have. But why does one come away with the impression that one has been pulling teeth or attempting to wring blood from a stone? Garinda asked a perfectly reasonable question about the source and amount of funding involved in the Victorian Swimming Gala. To date he has not received an answer. He has received instead an evasion - a means of answering a question by not revealing anything of the answer. If you do decide to continue as a member of the forum, can we look forward to a full and complete answer to Garinda's question, please?

[shillelagh]

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob

Gayle, whether you continue as a member of Accyweb, or not, is of no import to me whatsoever. You must make your own decisions on how to occupy your time, like the rest of us mortals. Passing the buck, as in "So basically you have two choices, I will leave it up to you." and "It's your choice." simply will not do. Either you wish to explain and defend the decisions you make as a public servant, or you don't. Clearly, it is up to you, not me, or anyone else for that matter.

You claim to have answered our questions. And, in part, you have. But why does one come away with the impression that one has been pulling teeth or attempting to wring blood from a stone? Garinda asked a perfectly reasonable question about the source and amount of funding involved in the Victorian Swimming Gala. To date he has not received an answer. He has received instead an evasion - a means of answering a question by not revealing anything of the answer. If you do decide to continue as a member of the forum, can we look forward to a full and complete answer to Garinda's question, please?

Originally Posted by Gayle

A few points

I have not been on for a while because I have been busy - I'm not avoiding the issue of cost of the Victorian Swimming Gala. I will happily let you know it.

However, I don't think it's fair to let you know in advance because as has happened with the Flash Mob you will prejudge it. I think it's unfair to judge something purely on cost when you have no idea of quality, effort and effect. Quite simply to pre-judge something undermines the hard work and effort that local people are putting into this. Think how demoralising it will be if any of the young people from schools, youth clubs and Accrington and Rossendale college will feel if they read this and you're already dismissing it as unworthy or rubbish. A lot of time and effort is going into this.

I am not hiding the cost, I'm just asking if it can be discussed afterwards.

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

I'll respect your wishes and hold off with the cost until after the event.

she has ... A-B ... and which i think is right ...

[Acrylic-bob]

Shillelagh: I disagree.

"I am not hiding the cost, I'm just asking if it can be discussed afterwards."

Going along with margaret's comment @ 14:32 the reasons given for wanting to withold discussion of cost untill after the event are unconvincing, to say the least. I doubt that any discussion conducted here, however heated or intense, can have much or any impression on any teenager who may or may not happen by.

Do you suppose that the anticipation of adverse public reaction stopped Shakespeare or Elgar or Turner in their tracks? How long are we supposed to wrap our kids up in cotton wool and shield them from the rude hard world?

[shillelagh]

why not wait till its after the event .. go and see it for yourself .. and then decide if its worth the money spent ... before making your mind up ...

i was always told .. one mans art is another mans tat ... in otherwords what one person thinks is art .. another person thinks it rubbish ..

gayle put it forward to wait till after the event .. ken agreed to it .. and seeing as their the ones with the info ... its only a couple of week off .. so wait and see ... go and watch it .. then make your mind up.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Gayle

However, I don't think it's fair to let you know in advance because as has happened with the Flash Mob you will prejudge it. I think it's unfair to judge something purely on cost when you have no idea of quality, effort and effect.

I am not hiding the cost, I'm just asking if it can be discussed afterwards.

Regarding the flash mob, I've certainly not prejudged it. I have posted that it isn't a 'modern' concept, and pointed out that historically the most succesful ones have cost not a penny.

Why should we be informed of the costs of the Victorian Swiming Gala 'afterwards'? Surely before, or after the event, makes no difference as to how we judge the worth and value of something. Indeed power is knowledge, and it might make that conundrum easier, when evaluating something's worth, if we already have the facts and figure to hand.

An idea, transparency in publicly funded arts, that the culture minister certainly seems to think a worthwhile idea.

Any art event that is made public, especially when it's publicly funded, should be open to crtique.

Any people taking part in this, who are thinking of a career in the commercial, rather than the state funded arts sector, could well benefit from this sort of exposure. As in the real world of commercial art, criticism is a way of life.

So in the interest of transparency, the Victorian Swimming Gala event, has secured how much in funding costs...?

[garinda]

Originally Posted by shillelagh

why not wait till its after the event .. go and see it for yourself .. and then decide if its worth the money spent ... before making your mind up ...

People don't order fish 'n' chip from a take-away, and then decide after they've wolfed them down, whether it's value for money, and pay the person behind the counter.

You check the price list, decide whether you think it's worth what they're asking, and make a purchase, or not.

I hope Gayle stays.

We will never agree on this, but as posted earlier, I admire her dogged defence.

I suspect, whether she stays or goes, these local state funded art events will have their worth, and value, discussed on here, regardless.

[yerself]

If you went into a certain Oswaldtwistle bakery and saw a selection of pies on display and enquired of the pieman, "How much are those pies?", would you expect him to reply "I don't think it's fair you know in advance. I think it's unfair to decide whether to purchase my pie purely on how expensive it is. Take a pie home, eat it and when you come back I'll tell you the cost and you can tell me if you think it was worth it."
Think how demoralised the baker would be if you decided not buy his wares purely on a cost basis if you knew the price in advance.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by shillelagh

why not wait till its after the event .. go and see it for yourself .. and then decide if its worth the money spent ... before making your mind up ...

i was always told .. one mans art is another mans tat ... in otherwords what one person thinks is art .. another person thinks it rubbish ..

gayle put it forward to wait till after the event .. ken agreed to it .. and seeing as their the ones with the info ... its only a couple of week off .. so wait and see ... go and watch it .. then make your mind up.

This thread is about the value of publicy funded arts.

Whether we know the costs now, or after the event, will make no difference when deciding something's worth.

Many people, whose taxes have helped fund these community art events, might not be able to attend. Some I've heard, gasp, even work on Saturdays.

Why should they be denied knowing the costs now?

Transparency.

What's to hide?

[garinda]

Originally Posted by yerself

If you went into a certain Oswaldtwistle bakery and saw a selection of pies on display and enquired of the pieman, "How much are those pies?", would you expect him to reply "I don't think it's fair you know in advance. I think it's unfair to decide whether to purchase my pie purely on how expensive it is. Take a pie home, eat it and when you come back I'll tell you the cost and you can tell me if you think it was worth it."
Think how demoralised the baker would be if you decided not buy his wares purely on a cost basis if you knew the price in advance.

Lol.

I very nearly used a pie analogy, but settled on fish 'n' chips.

[Barrie Yates]

Originally Posted by shillelagh

why not wait till its after the event .. go and see it for yourself .. and then decide if its worth the money spent ... before making your mind up ...

i was always told .. one mans art is another mans tat ... in otherwords what one person thinks is art .. another person thinks it rubbish ..

gayle put it forward to wait till after the event .. ken agreed to it .. and seeing as their the ones with the info ... its only a couple of week off .. so wait and see ... go and watch it .. then make your mind up.

The record so far does not raise ones hopes that it will be value for money - so far every one of these events has been an in-mitigated flop and has received nothing but a strong aversion to this type of event.
I ask a simple question - Do markets such as those at Bury, Blackburn, Burnley, Liverpool or Doncaster require an "arts entertainment" session to attract customers to the stalls?
Gayle, ask the townsfolk whether they can think of better ways to have spent this money rather than pay second/third rate "artists" - I use that word with severe reservations. Ask the townsfolk what they would prefer - you have already got an impression of what they think, surely you are intelligent enough to realise that you have dug yourself a deep hole and are continuing to dig.