Those who should- don't.

Gordon Booth · 14-10-2011, 18:35

So we have teachers who can't/don't teach, police who can't/don't police,civil servants who aren't civil to us, public servants who don't want to bother with the public.
Now we have nurses who don't nurse! 50 out of 100 hospitals sub-standard care for the elderly, 20 of them so bad some were commiting crimes!
How can anyone, especially a nurse, leave a helpless person dying for lack of water, leave a meal when they're asleep and take it away before they waken up, leave them in their own mess and ignore them when they ask for help?
The usual cry of ' We're overworked, understaffed' doesn't wash. The investigators found some hospitals with poor facilities and low staff gave excellent care, some with good facilities and full staff levels were terrible.
It's not the staffing levels, it's the staff! Blaming 'Management' isn't good enough either although they should never allow this to happen.
These ward staff aren't just 'walking by on the other side'. They're causing death by neglect.How can they do it and how do we stop it?

garinda · 14-10-2011, 18:45

I'm sure there'll be posts from people much better qualified to comment than myself.

However, I firmly believe nursing should not be taught as an academic subject.

Yes you need a good educational standard, but I believe more emphasis should be placed on whether student nurses show a natural aptitude to actually nurse 'people', rather than if they are deemed capable of academic success, achieved mainly through studying books.

You're rght. How coud anyone with an ounce of humanity withold dignified care, from those who most need it?

The whole nursing recruitment procedure needs overhauling.

garinda · 14-10-2011, 18:49

Some of the nurses I've had the misfortune to come in contact in the last few years, I wouldn't employ in a kennels.

Without generalising too much, many, not all, were male nurses.

lancsdave · 14-10-2011, 18:55

Maybe they could get some of the non-nursing managerial staff who probably outnumber nurses 10-1 in the NHS to pick up a spoon and feed a patient.

jaysay · 14-10-2011, 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by lancsdave

Maybe they could get some of the non-nursing managerial staff who probably outnumber nurses 10-1 in the NHS to pick up a spoon and feed a patient.

The ratio of managerial staff to clinical staff (Dr, nurses etc) is 998 clerical staff to every 1000 clinicians, one to one basically, you tell me which business could run on that type of ratio, they'd soon go bump

lancsdave · 14-10-2011, 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay

you tell me which business could run on that type of ratio, they'd soon go bump

I know one which has a ratio of one manager to one dogsbody, oh hang on you might be right

Neil · 14-10-2011, 19:08

I heard this on the news and wondered if when they found 20 were committing crimes they brought the police in and arrested the CEO who is supposed to be responsible for that sort of stuff.

My guess would be no they did not and if not why not?

Gordon Booth · 14-10-2011, 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay

The ratio of managerial staff to clinical staff (Dr, nurses etc) is 998 clerical staff to every 1000 clinicians, one to one basically, you tell me which business could run on that type of ratio, they'd soon go bump

I couldn't agree more, jaysay, but the investigators made it clear that staffing levels weren't the cause-it was attitude. I've seen it and so has my wife- luckily we weren't helpless but next time??

walkinman221 · 14-10-2011, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda

Some of the nurses I've had the misfortune to come in contact in the last few years, I wouldn't employ in a kennels.

Without generalising too much, many, not all, were male nurses.

I agree rindi i had the misfortune of being in the care (and i use that word in its loosest sense)of a male nurse when i had an op on a broken collarbone (rugby injury) and i think he'd been kicked out of the gestapo for cruelty, i also think nursing is 70% empathy and 30% book learning.

Margaret Pilkington · 14-10-2011, 19:33

I have my own views on this.
Taking nurses out of local schools of Nursing and putting them into Universities was not a good move(IMHO).
I served a sort of apprenticeship....a sandwich course in nursing. We were taught that the patients needs were paramount......they came above everything else(including meal breaks).

My experience of the University student nurses was that they were not interested in doing the basic stuff. Washing bottoms, changing patients, bathing patients, feeding patients(all activites which have such a personal touch to them, and which often lead patients to tell you their fears and worries....which you would never otherwise have known....and which you could then address)all they wanted to do was the technical things.

If I was going into nursing now, I would not be accepted. My education would not be deemed good enough........I would have had to go to college to do a foundation course.

I am glad I did my nursing when I did, because it was the best of times. the bit I enjoyed the most was caring for patients.......doing for them what I would want for a member of my own family....treating them with dignity.
We were not well paid and we worked very hard......but working hard is never a chore if you enjoy what you are doing.

garinda · 14-10-2011, 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

If I was going into nursing now, I would not be accepted. My education would not be deemed good enough........I would have had to go to college to do a foundation course.

That is a very sad statement, and just shows how wrong the whole system is.

You, or someone like you, should be in charge of nursing recruitment nationwide.

Stuff degrees.

Bring back kindness, and human decency.

There are still good nurses.

Though fewer than there used to be.

When you're vunerable you're in much need of gentle kindness, as you are of medicine.

garinda · 14-10-2011, 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

I have my own views on this.
Taking nurses out of local schools of Nursing and putting them into Universities was not a good move(IMHO).
I served a sort of apprenticeship....a sandwich course in nursing. We were taught that the patients needs were paramount......they came above everything else(including meal breaks).

My experience of the University student nurses was that they were not interested in doing the basic stuff. Washing bottoms, changing patients, bathing patients, feeding patients(all activites which have such a personal touch to them, and which often lead patients to tell you their fears and worries....which you would never otherwise have known....and which you could then address)all they wanted to do was the technical things.

If I was going into nursing now, I would not be accepted. My education would not be deemed good enough........I would have had to go to college to do a foundation course.

I am glad I did my nursing when I did, because it was the best of times. the bit I enjoyed the most was caring for patients.......doing for them what I would want for a member of my own family....treating them with dignity.
We were not well paid and we worked very hard......but working hard is never a chore if you enjoy what you are doing.

I'd just like to point out that Margaret won the prize for best student nurse, whilst doing her training.

Both her, and her daughter have the natural skills and aptitude, that make them both 'people persons', and ideal healing nurturers.

There should be more in the profession like them.

Margaret Pilkington · 14-10-2011, 19:52

Yes G, you are right. It saddens me that there are people out there who would make excellent carers......because they have the practical skills, but are rejected because they don't have paper qualifications.
Some of the very best caring lessons I learned were from untrained(but very experienced) nursing auxiliaries.

There is also and issue of understaffing too...which I think has got much worse.(I noticed this when Ma was in hospital after her stroke)
When understaffing is talked of it isn't just numbers of people doing the caring, it is the right kind of carers...the ratios of trained to untrained(obviously it is cheaper to pay someone who is untrained).

You are right about kindness....and being made to feel important, they are as important as medicine.........when there is no time to be kind, it is indeed a very sad situation.

Margaret Pilkington · 14-10-2011, 19:53

Oh G........I'm blushing now!

Gordon Booth · 14-10-2011, 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

I am glad I did my nursing when I did, because it was the best of times. the bit I enjoyed the most was caring for patients.......doing for them what I would want for a member of my own family....treating them with dignity.
We were not well paid and we worked very hard......but working hard is never a chore if you enjoy what you are doing.

Margaret, you were one of the nurses I remember from my youth, nothing like a lot of the ones I've met in the last few years.
One of the things which really annoyed me was when 6 or more of them(why so many?)sat round the night desk, talking, laughing and keeping us awake. But heaven help anyone who rang their bell or shouted for help!