Today's EU question: how would you vote?

[cashman]

Originally Posted by garinda

Since posting this on October 10th.




What happened to the democracy you talked about?

At least attempt at being consistent in what you say.

Folk round here aren't half as stupid as you seem to think.

A clear demonstration then,of a vote fer the party n sod the people. I missed that quote was away until Oct 11th

[garinda]

Originally Posted by cashman

A clear demonstration then,of a vote fer the party n sod the people. I missed that quote was away until Oct 11th

I bet Graham Jones really wishes they had secret ballots at Westminster.

Then he could more easily say one thing...and do another.

[garinda]

I've just had a word with the Accy Web archivist.

They're arranging for all these threads to be made easily accessible to us at a later date.

Even at busy times.

Like near an election.

Thank you archivist.

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by g jones

Labour's promise at the last election was NO to an EU referendum. You may not like it, but I did what I promised. I hope you can concede that at the very least.

Whatever my own feelings I don't think knee jerk opportunistic u-turns are the answer. Besides there was no credible argument, just a disorganised incoherent ramble from the likes of Mr Nuttall, Mr Jackson and Co.

In the end it is about taking the tough and unpopular decisions but which are in the areas best interests. I believe without a shadow of doubt I did that. Some may disagree and they have their vote at future elections. I have said this many times, on these occasions, votes don't inform my decision. I expect to lose on the cross on belief and principle.

So your actions yesterday were a noble act of self-sacrifice...nothing to do with keeping in favour with the Labour party hierarchy, of course.

And those Labour MPs like Kate Hoey, Frank Field etc who voted for a referendum are of course, shameless opportunists.

Just how daft do you think we are, Graham?

[g jones]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

So your actions yesterday were a noble act of self-sacrifice...nothing to do with keeping in favour with the Labour party hierarchy, of course.

And those Labour MPs like Kate Hoey, Frank Field etc who voted for a referendum are of course, shameless opportunists.

Just how daft do you think we are, Graham?

I don't think you're daft. You have a principalled view and in your case it is a left wing credible view unless you have swapped sides.

I think noble act is an overblown description. More like doing what your supposed to do. The personal remarks are an irrelevance.

John Cruddas rebelled as well. Labours rebels were the same people who rebel on a wide range of views and are entitled to their say. However they stood on a Labour promise to their electorate and did the opposite. Typical politicians I hear someone say.

It was revealed yesterday that back in 1975, a whopping 66% of people wanted out of Europe at the start of the EU referendum. That debate actually stated that this was part of a move to a more integrated Europe.

My view is we need reform and Edm is right to highlight the real problems of migrant workers affect on wages. Something I have pressed him about. Of course I and some of the Tory antiEU brigade are on the opposite page again. They believe foreign workers keep wages down and that is a good thing.

Our voters interests are not shared by these people.

[g jones]

*I note *today’s Ecofin meeting has been cancelled & more than £18bn was wiped off the value of shares in London in just 20 minutes when EU officials also warned of the *consequences of the crises engulfing Europe. An EU in out referendum would have been a tragedy at this time. Bare in mind the low value of shares is hitting retiring pensioners hard. Playing this kind of politics with people's lives is not right.

And out the dust the truth emerges. I have repeated this many times. Labour voters should run a million miles from Euroskeptisism.

Cameron, Gove and Co are trying now to buy off Eurosceptics with threat to employment rights’ such as maternity and paternity leave, paid holidays, agency workers rights, TUPE etc..

Whe you are privileged to be on the inside, these are the things you see more clearly and decisively.

I can understand Tories and right wingers being anti EU. Working class people should not be supporting the Jacksons, the Holloways and the Nuttalls. With the dust settling and the Tory party fighting in public over the issue, we should take a good long hard look at the people we shod be worried about, Tory EU rebels and what they have really meant by anti EU.

Their mistaken idea (fundamentally flawed actually) is a Britain that is isolated from Europe on protections, employment, food and drink, environment where as Redwood stated (and it says is it all) "we can still buy German cars and French wine".

I believe it is common sense for working people to step away from supporting these arguments.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by g jones

My view is...

But why say on October 10th that you didn't have an 'objection to a simple in out vote', as it 'settles the issue democratically', and then vote to deny the chance to let peoples' views be known?

You keep mentioning the 1975 referendum, and the E.U.

The actual wording on the referendum paper was this.

"Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)?"

The European Union, the body it is today, didn't even exist in 1975.

That's the whole point.

Not one Briton has ever been allowed to vote on whether they want E.U. membership, or not.

It's pointless of you, or us, even discussing why E.U. membership benefits/hinders the U.K.

That balanced, reasoned public debate won't now happen, because you, and other politicans voted against letting people have their democratic right to vote on this issue, in a referendum.

What you voted for, a great many of your constituents think was wrong.

They want their views on this issue made known, in a referendum.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by g jones

You have a principalled view and in your case it is a left wing credible view unless you have swapped sides.

...and in my case, I've been politically active since the age of 15, and a Labour voter ever since the first election I was old enough to vote in, in 1983. Which if my maths is correct, is a year longer than you have.

No longer.

As stated earlier, I will never again vote for a politican, or party who doesn't actively support a referendum on this issue.

As much as that sickens me to say it, I think it is that important that people are at least allowed their say.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by g jones

*I note *today’s Ecofin meeting has been cancelled & more than £18bn was wiped off the value of shares in London in just 20 minutes when EU officials also warned of the *consequences of the crises engulfing Europe. An EU in out referendum would have been a tragedy at this time. Bare in mind the low value of shares is hitting retiring pensioners hard. Playing this kind of politics with people's lives is not right.

And out the dust the truth emerges. I have repeated this many times. Labour voters should run a million miles from Euroskeptisism.

Cameron, Gove and Co are trying now to buy off Eurosceptics with threat to employment rights’ such as maternity and paternity leave, paid holidays, agency workers rights, TUPE etc..

Whe you are privileged to be on the inside, these are the things you see more clearly and decisively.

I can understand Tories and right wingers being anti EU. Working class people should not be supporting the Jacksons, the Holloways and the Nuttalls. With the dust settling and the Tory party fighting in public over the issue, we should take a good long hard look at the people we shod be worried about, Tory EU rebels and what they have really meant by anti EU.

Their mistaken idea (fundamentally flawed actually) is a Britain that is isolated from Europe on protections, employment, food and drink, environment where as Redwood stated (and it says is it all) "we can still buy German cars and French wine".

I believe it is common sense for working people to step away from supporting these arguments.

As stated.

It's pointless you putting forward an argument.

There will now be no public debate.

Which there could have been.

If you, and the majority of your fellow M.P.'s had supported peoples' right to vote democratically in a referendum.

[cashman]

What i have never been able to understand, n have asked this question a few times oer many years, it seems as difficult as asking a priest/vicar etc to justify god, "Wheres the Democracy in a 3 Line Whip"? it certainly puts Mps in a very awkward position wi there constituents it seems to me.

[g jones]

The fall out continues in the press this morning and why EdM was so right yesterday in his private speech to Labour frontbench MP's when he said 'make no mistake, Europe is an issue we are going to have confront. His concerns about migrant labour and depressed wages. That reform would be on Labour's terms. That jumping in to bed with Tories on their terms made Labour look shabby and unprincipled and would come back to haunt us. We said one thing at the election, now we are doing the opposite AND on a backbench motion. That Labour is a pro European Party, that the world has grown smaller.

I raise my concerns with Ed and his team particulalry on the issue he has raised, migrant labour. It is far more effective to be inside the tent looking out and than outside the tent looking in. A foolish hero for day, irrelevant thereafter.

The press are now reporting that some of the extreme rightwing Tory EU rebels were not that bothered about the EU referendum at all but rebelled to give Cameron a bloody nose.

So we now have a picture of the rebels. Some out of the EU because workers have to many rights and some that may be pro-Europe but want a right wing Tory party.

‘Cameron v Conservatives as MPs round on No10’. The scale of the rebellion reflected a factor that appears not to have registered in No 10 until now: the Cameron circle is seen as aloof from, and out of touch with, the vast majority of Conservative MPs.

Tory frontbencher with the ear of ministers: ‘This has been handled as shambolically as it could be. The prime minister has got himself into a decaffeinated November 1989 position.’ And: ‘The advice of Tristan Garel-Jones to Margaret Thatcher is as valid as ever. You've got to start smiling at the f**kers and pretend you like them.’

MPs say that Cameron's distance from the party came to a head over No 10's handling of Monday's vote.

Snr Tory: ‘We could have had a one-line whip and had the debate on Thursday. Colleagues would have taken that excuse to visit their mistresses – sorry, their wives.’

Another Minister: ‘It was difficult. David was absolutely clear that there was very limited room for compromise. His view was that if we didn't face this now it would just come back.’ (ie no credible alternative)

But the minister believes there is a big lesson for No 10: ‘The big thing for Downing Street is how they allowed this to become a lightning rod for widespread discontent with No 10. They appear to have been shaken that their charm in the runup to the vote with some, but by no means all, didn't work.’

Many MPs complain that the prime minister has a habit of surrounding himself with people from similar backgrounds. Normally loyal MP: ‘I am no class warrior but it is fair to say that his circle come from a particular group in society.’

There is a view that, collectively, Cameron's circle has no feeling for bbenchers, most of whom were not educated privately. One minister: ‘There is a feeling that Cameron simply doesn't care. It feels like he thinks: 'I am just going to be prime minister for one term and then I'll hand over to George [Osborne].'‘ MPs believe No 10 has shown little or no understanding of the Tory parliamentary party

[Boeing Guy]

Graham,....

Cameron, Gove and Co are trying now to buy off Eurosceptics with threat to employment rights’ such as maternity and paternity leave, paid holidays, agency workers rights, TUPE etc..

Well I am a Euro-sceptic, seeing that being in Europe will protect Workers etc, why oh why are the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) being forced into introducing European Flight Time Limitations (FTL's). These are seen by many in the Airline industry as being less stringent than the UK ones, which work very well. The CAA have given the data from their SAFE program showing that under European FTL's Pilots are more fatigued and can put lives at risk.

In particular, the proposed EU rules could see pilots so tired that they have the equivalent performance detriment of being Four times over the legal alcohol limit.

far from this being the Airline Pilots Union (BALPA), these figures are derived from the CAA's and Qinetiq's findings. So they are not just some Union rhetoric.

Still as Garinda has pointed out, you are not really interested in the views of your constituents, after all you are now a MP and above the rest of us.
As I said earlier, you eat out of the same trough as the rest, at least Greg Pope stood by his convictions.

[g jones]

Originally Posted by garinda

What a noble speech.

You showed such bravery! Sticking to your principles, rather than doing what was right for democracy. I'm sure we are all very touched by your humble, self-effacing words.

I'm filling up, I'm so moved Just one question.

If you'd already decided you were voting against giving us a referendum, why on earth bother posting your poll question on here yesterday?

Parliament is democracy. The vote in the commons was very much reflective of the YouGov poll and other polls. Sophologist Anthony Wells has done a good piece on why Europe isn't important to most voters. Public opinion on Europe.

Yesterday's poll here was to gauge the opinions on here on the substanive matter, a triple question, something you had either not realsied by mistake or convienently glossed.

In the end if you are saying Europe is the most important issue, then you ar relegating jobs and growth and I can say with cast iron certainty, you are way out of touch with ordinary British people.

Originally Posted by garinda

Man of the people! Sadly those people don't live in Hyndburn. Unless the swankier parts of Islington find they're soon to be moved north to Lancashire, following recommendations by the Boundary Commission.

I live on Hodder Street and have lived in the constituency virtually all my life. My flat is in one of the poorest parts of London.

If your point is I am out of touch then say so.

[g jones]

Originally Posted by Boeing Guy

Graham,....

Well I am a Euro-sceptic, seeing that being in Europe will protect Workers etc, why oh why are the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) being forced into introducing European Flight Time Limitations (FTL's). These are seen by many in the Airline industry as being less stringent than the UK ones, which work very well. The CAA have given the data from their SAFE program showing that under European FTL's Pilots are more fatigued and can put lives at risk.

In particular, the proposed EU rules could see pilots so tired that they have the equivalent performance detriment of being Four times over the legal alcohol limit.

far from this being the Airline Pilots Union (BALPA), these figures are derived from the CAA's and Qinetiq's findings. So they are not just some Union rhetoric.

This is true and an issue. In this case we have better regulations. In many other cases we have poorer regulations.

[Boeing Guy]

So why are we going to accept it. Bear in mind this has been ongoing for a number of years.
One line answers are very good for Cmon, I do expect better off a MP.
I understand this may not in your region of knowledge, but it is a very very important issue, in the UK we have one of the finest records of safety in the world and have a very proactive approach to safety.
Do we want this to eroded.

Aviation is the safest form of transport in the world, we are regulated as tightly if not more as the Nuclear Industry, there is a continuing approach to safety and making flying safer. This will erode some of those lessons learnt. Lessons that cost lives in order to make things better and safer.

The French, refuse to speak English to French pilots and aircraft from countries that have French as a primary language, this has caused many problems and even the death of a English Pilot at Charles de Gaulle Airport Paris a number of years ago. Is this the way we want to go?