Tony Blair Mark Two.

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by shakermaker

I think we must recognise that the NHS and the country as a whole is a lot better than it was pre-Blair

Considering the lot that came before him, that's not saying much. However, I agree that Cameron is a disaster waiting to happen...although I suppose Cyfr will be along soon to tell us how wrong we are!

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by cashman

cant agree shaker that the nhs is better than pre blair, i think there was more staff in the right places then. i'm sure our nhs members will slap me if i'm incorrect.lol

Don't know about anyone else but Mrs H keeps telling me about how she is sick and tired of the endless meetings, meaningless reports and pointless discussions and how she just wants to get back to doing what she came into the NHS to do - treat her patients!

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Don't know about anyone else but Mrs H keeps telling me about how she is sick and tired of the endless meetings, meaningless reports and pointless discussions and how she just wants to get back to doing what she came into the NHS to do - treat her patients!

thats exactly the direction i was heading, i get that from a few of my friends that work in it.

[Ianto.W.]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Don't know about anyone else but Mrs H keeps telling me about how she is sick and tired of the endless meetings, meaningless reports and pointless discussions and how she just wants to get back to doing what she came into the NHS to do - treat her patients!

You are dead right Wynonie, to much time wasted on paperwork and not enough on the patients, not the nurses fault the system is far to top heavy, and to much time has to be spent comprising reports so the powers that be can tell Joe public how well the health service is performing.
As anyone who knows me on this site will tell you, I have had excellent service off the system and my life saved three times, I have also had plenty of time to study it whilst lying helpless in bed for hours on end, during specialists rounds there is an army of hangers on that last aprox half an hour, then the rest of the day you hardly see anyone. There are no juniors or learners there to give you a moment or two distraction from the boredom, and if you are miles from home as I was a week is a long time between visits, the health service is too fragmented and specialist are few and far between, 1 lung specialist for East Lancs one heart specialist etc all at different locations that is the cause of the problem, to many chiefs and not enough Indians. Getting back on thread I repeat my opening statement that speech will judge the man "I did what George Dubya Bush told me to do".

[bullseyebarb]

Originally Posted by steeljack

Thats the problem, all facts and figures get hidden away under 'security laws' for 25 or 50 years , the truth only starts to come out after the buggers are dead and buried

No, it has more to do with the passions of the moment having died away. Unpopular decisions made by a political leader in one era may well prove to have been correct some decades down the road when the results are evident and evaluated.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by bullseyebarb

No, it has more to do with the passions of the moment having died away. Unpopular decisions made by a political leader in one era may well prove to have been correct some decades down the road when the results are evident and evaluated.

Do you think that the Germans are pondering on that?

[Billcat]

Originally Posted by bullseyebarb

My happiness and success in life do not depend upon the government.....I have always made quite sure of that.

No government will ever spend your money as wisely as you can and the programs and services they provide are always the most inefficient and costly way to go.

As for Mr. Blair and President Bush......history will be the judge. It is far too early at this point to make a proper evaluation.

Pretty obvious to anyone who is paying attention that Bush already has a failed presidency! Matches very well with his no-very-successful business exploits.

[Billcat]

Originally Posted by bullseyebarb

No government will ever spend your money as wisely as you can and the programs and services they provide are always the most inefficient and costly way to go.

I think anyone who pays the least bit of attention can find many, many examples of individuals who find spectacularly unwise ways to spend their money. Check out the Darwin awards some day! Good for a dark bit of himor and a very practical reminder that there are many folks out there who haven't the sense that God gave geese!

And, there are some things the government does well. Highways, universal public education, public libraries, as well as public health initiaitves such as sewage and sanitation, clean water, safe foods, etc. Indeed, a great deal of the improved quality and length of life we enjoy today result from these same public health initiatives. Is government perfect? Of course not (no human system is or ever will be), but certainly some very valuable outcomes.

[bullseyebarb]

[quote=Billcat;423968]I think anyone who pays the least bit of attention can find many, many examples of individuals who find spectacularly unwise ways to spend their money. Check out the Darwin awards some day! Good for a dark bit of himor and a very practical reminder that there are many folks out there who haven't the sense that God gave geese! quote]

There will always be a certain percentage of people who make poor choices. The rest of us should not be forced into the role of enabler.

[bullseyebarb]

[quote=Billcat;423968 And, there are some things the government does well. Highways, universal public education, public libraries, as well as public health initiaitves such as sewage and sanitation, clean water, safe foods, etc. Indeed, a great deal of the improved quality and length of life we enjoy today result from these same public health initiatives. Is government perfect? Of course not (no human system is or ever will be), but certainly some very valuable outcomes.[/quote]

We are not getting full value for our tax dollars no matter how you slice it. These things may have begun with the best of intentions but far too often they go off the rails. For example, our public schools, by and large, are a disaster.

[bullseyebarb]

Originally Posted by Billcat

Pretty obvious to anyone who is paying attention that Bush already has a failed presidency! Matches very well with his no-very-successful business exploits.

As a libertarian, I certainly have issues with President Bush. However, one must always look at the larger picture and history may not judge him as harshly as you already have. Ditto for Mr. Blair.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

I'm not calling the NHS, my missus works in it and I've been using it quite a bit for one thing and another over the last couple of years. The doctors, surgeons, nurses, technicians, porters and all the other front-line staff are hard-working, dedicated individuals who do their jobs incredibly well, sometimes under difficult conditions.

I am, however, calling this government for its mismanagement and squandering of precious resources in the NHS. Blair had a great opportunity to really transform the NHS and he blew it...and no amount of banging on about events of 20 years ago by the likes of Mancie and Shakey can change that!

I couldn't have agreed more with you in this thread (until you posted about Cameron anyway ).

All too often people look at "What it was like under Thatcher" without looking at the big picture. Look at the economy SHE inhreited, drastic changes needed to take place, and they did, and look at where we are now because of that.

Thatcher/Major built the foundations which Blair/Brown have built upon, just Thatcher had to make the hard decisions which not everyone agreed with so many of you compare now to then. When in reality if it wasn't for her Blair would not have had such great economic foundations to build on, infact he proberbly wouldn't have even become leader of the Labour party.

Because the foundations were so good, and we'd been taken out of a slump, things were on the up, the world not just the UK was in economic growth, he should have used the opporunities to sort out the NHS now that the foundations were set, but he squandered those oppertunities. Anyone including him can bang on about how much investment we have seen, but it means nothing because the performance has not improved in corrolation with the money invested, much of it has been wasted.

Yes the NHS was less funded in the early 90's, yes we had huge waiting times, but the staff could get on with their jobs.

My grandma has been working for the NHS for 50years now (which is a considerable amount of time since the NHS is 59 years old I think), she says it has "never been worse". That speaks volumes from somebody who has been a working class Labour supporter all her life.

[grannyclaret]

That woman is either loved or hated,,,,,,,I am of the later school...........

[shakermaker]

Look, let's break it down:

NHS FUNDS:
1997 - 34bn
2007 - 94bn

Front line staff up by 2.6% (then 1,058,686 & now 1,338,140).

For me, Blair's greatest achievment is Ireland. If you'd have told any Irish person a decade ago that one day Gerry Adams & Ian Paisley would sit down and talk, they would never have believed you.

Of course there's going to be problems but for me he's been great and I hope the next guy continues what Blair started.

[andrewb]

You can look at the figures of investment as much as you want, im not denying theres been almost 3x more money put in to the health service. I'm saying much of it has been wasted, the NHS has become more topdown, more beaurocratic, countless wasted hours meeting/paperwork which is stopping staff from doing their jobs and actually treating people. The money has been wasted, Blair has reined over a decade of missed oppertunities.

Personally i've had an awful NHS experience, and yeah I can be seen by a junior doctor (not consultant) in around 8weeks, but yet 1.5years later I'm still ill and they still dont know what it is. You don't get to see your consultant, and the doctors you do see are trying to meet targets rather than actually getting you better!