Tories "work for benifits" scheme

[WillowTheWhisp]

The difference is that if the government is paying the wages the money still comes from the taxpayer.

[lettie]

I reckon that the jobs that these people would be given would be in public services and not businesses, those services which are covered by the tax payer, eg hospital cleaning, council buildings, schools etc. Public services are notoriously understaffed, hospital cleaning is a brilliant example. No extra money would have to be spent and there could be twice as many cleaners.
This may have worked in other countries like the USA and Australia but I bet our lot would screw it up somehow.

[lancsdave]

David Cameron was interviewed on BBC news this morning. Before interviewing him they talked to somebody who would be affected having been on JSA for over 2 years. The person they interviewed said he doesn't claim JSA to do community service, he does it to support him while he looks for work. The bloke was 23 and had been claiming JSA for 4 years. Looking for work my arse

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by lettie

I reckon that the jobs that these people would be given would be in public services and not businesses, those services which are covered by the tax payer, eg hospital cleaning, council buildings, schools etc. Public services are notoriously understaffed, hospital cleaning is a brilliant example. No extra money would have to be spent and there could be twice as many cleaners.
This may have worked in other countries like the USA and Australia but I bet our lot would screw it up somehow.

That would make sense if the cleaning jobs would otherwise be filled by someone else so in effect it would be saving money.

[lettie]

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

That would make sense if the cleaning jobs would otherwise be filled by someone else so in effect it would be saving money.

That's just it Willow, hospitals need lots more cleaners but most aren't recruiting because they don't have enough money in the coffers for extra staff. It would certainly help that particular problem area, believe me, it is nigh on impossible to find a cleaner where I work at night.

[shillelagh]

This is about people who are on Jobseekers allowance NOT incapacity benefit. So please leave people who are on incapacity benefit alone.

Ok it is a touchy subject for me.

Just as long as it doesnt put people out of work - the employers etc when a cleaner leaves well instead of advertising for a new cleaner i'll take someone who isnt going to cost me anything and eventually get down to all the cleaners in the firm being people who are on jobseekers allowance and so saving the employer money. Was watching newsnight last night and they interviewed 2 people and one of them was a mum and her kid brought home a letter for a daytrip and she said i cant afford it and the kid said well you go out to work every day and she said yes to get the benefit. By the way she was against it, she said it belittles her in her kids eyes. The other one who was on it was for it.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by shillelagh

This is about people who are on Jobseekers allowance NOT incapacity benefit.

The proposed Conservative reform of the benefits system does include Incapacity Benefit.

'In an attempt to cut the 2.6 million people on incapacity benefit, all current claimants would be reassessed by doctors and, if considered fit for work, placed on jobseeker's allowance - losing £20 a week benefit.'

Cameron sets out welfare-to-work plans | Special Reports | Guardian Unlimited Politics

[shillelagh]

Im safe anyway - got a letter last fri saying ive been awarded my incapacity benefit to october 2012.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Sorry to have to disagree with you Jen but this link would seem to indicate otherwise.

The Tories have also unveiled plans to cut the number of people on incapacity
benefit by 200,000.

All 2.64 million incapacity benefit claimants would be reassessed by doctors and, if passed fit for work, placed on Jobseekers' Allowance, a benefit cut of £20 a week.


Mr Cameron told BBC Breakfast: "We cannot go on as we are with 2.6 million people on incapacity benefit, 500,000 of them are under 35.

"Are we really saying there are half a million people in this country under 35 who are simply too ill to work? I don't think that's right.

"I think we have got to make changes and this is a genuinely thought-through and worked-out package which I think will help get more people into work and help them make better lives for themselves and their families."

Asked if working for benefits, rather than the national minimum wage, would be an affront to people's dignity, he said: "Where is the dignity in sitting at home, dependent on the state, not having a job?"

That was in reply to your post before Garinda's.

They seem to keep moving the goalposts. I have a friend who was awarded DLA for life and yet has had to go for two further medicals since then!

[shillelagh]

I got awarded it for life as well ....... then took off me 5 years later.

[WillowTheWhisp]

How do they justify that?

[shillelagh]

They said i wasnt ill enough. The assessor came out to the house because i'd had to cancel the other appointment because id had a fit and wasnt well enough to get there so they came out two weeks later. When she came she asked me to lift a pan out of the cupboard. Because i could lift an empty pan - a saucepan -as well she said i wasnt ill enough to get the dla anymore.

[andrewb]

It' a great idea providing it is handled correctly. As was mentioned, we need to make sure current cleaners remain employed so the NHS isn't cutting costs and depriving people who aren't on JSA from getting a job.

Secondly obviously people who clearly are genuinely not fit to work will not be made to (I'm talking about incapacity benefits). There is however a large number of incapacity claimants that could do jobs which their capacity prohibits. This has to be handled very carefully.

[jambutty]

Any scheme that gets the work shy into work is worth exploring but only if the cost of running the scheme is less than the money saved. Not like the CSA where it was reported that the CSA cost millions to run but they only recovered a fraction of that amount.

The other point I would make is that you can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

In other words what do you do if the ‘worker’ makes a hash of the job s/he is given and continues to do so? Would you want a work shy person cleaning in hospitals? They would more likely spread infections than keep them under check.

If a person is dead set on not working then how do you make him/her?

The real way to get most people back to work is to ensure that their wages after tax, NI and travelling costs to work are well above what they get on benefits.

Someone on JSA will also get things like free prescriptions, most if not all of the rent paid and Council Tax paid. Add those allowances into the equation and a person at work would need to bring home over £150 per week to make it worth their while to find a job. It would be even more if there were a family to keep.

But if a scheme is to go ahead then how about gangs of street cleaners picking up litter and sorting rubbish for re-cycling and tipping instead of lumbering the long suffering public with the task.

[MargaretR]

I was on Incapacity benefit for 9 years until I got retirement pension. I have had one of those 'point scoring' medicals.

They are a bit of a farce really because they are full of trick questions. I got a copy of The Disability Rights Handbook which shows you what your score will be for each answer. By knowing that a score of 15 will ensure you stay on benefit, you can tailor your answers to fit the bill, whilst giving the appearance that you are capable of some activities in your answers to the trick questions, which give no score at all, and so increase your credibilty.

It is neccessary to do this because the system used for the assessment looks at physical limitations and places little weight on PAIN.

Pain is a very subjective sensation and the capacity to tolerate it varies widely from person to person and can vary for that person from day to day.

A person who lives with cronic incurable pain will know exactly what I mean - a fit and healthy person who has not been there will consider 'taking a pain killing pill' will do the trick -- it wont!--- it doesn't!

Constant pain is something your body learns to adapt to and only becomes apparant to others when your capacity to cope with it is reduced by other factors -- eg by having to be 'capable' at 8 set hours of the day, for 5 set days a week.(work)

I have all my limbs intact and there are days when I have the energy to do springcleaning and decorating, but I know that for any day like that I will have 2 afterwards where the pain gets to an intolerable level and I just rest and sleep.

Until they invent a gadget whereby the examiner can feel the degree of pain experienced by the person being tested, tests will never be infallible.