Tough Plans for Young Jobless

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by garinda

...but as you don't seem able to give details as to what these people on the schemes will actually be doing, you don't know whose, or how many, people's jobs they will put at risk.

Very poorly thought out idea.

We have already discussed that it will include community work, that is additionally not replacement. We have already discussed that it will be independent 'back to work' companies that will be training people and helping them find jobs. All they are doing is training them not stealing other peoples jobs. So unless you have any other problems with the proposals other than the ones than the job stealing one which has been resolved, you'd be happy to support the proposals?

[emamum]

is it not better for rthem to be out doing something, getting experience of having a job instead of being paid benefits for doing nothing??

It means that benefits is not the easy option and i think it will push them to get a proper job that pays better.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by Pendle Red

What a complete load of Cobblers!

Nothing new just a rehash of what has already been tried and failed

What fantastic sum of money will be offered by these so called Specialist Employers?

I don't think it has been tried before. I thought YOP's created job stealing according to Garinda, but this won't happen under the new proposals.

The specialist employers will get the amount equal to benefits as I understand it. Be that voluntary organisations or companies. Training costs money, but I think it is right that we get people into jobs because in the long run it is better than paying them to be unemployed.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by andrewb

you'd be happy to support the proposals?

No.

They've been tried before, and failed.

I'd happily support much stronger proposals.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by garinda

No.

They've been tried before, and failed.

I'd happily support much stronger proposals.

They haven't been tried before. I understand you can't u-turn on the matter because that would mean you'd have been wrong at somepoint on Accringtonweb. Nevermind Gary, it happens to the best of us.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by andrewb

They haven't been tried before. I understand you can't u-turn on the matter because that would mean you'd have been wrong at somepoint on Accringtonweb. Nevermind Gary, it happens to the best of us.

You've not supplied any detail as to how this scheme is different from the schemes listed in this link, to make me think otherwise.

'Meanwhile, the emphasis of the MSC was increasingly to alleviate the adverse effects of unemployment, and particularly youth unemployment. YOP had been heavily criticised for the poor quality of training, and many employers used subsidised YOP trainees as cheap labour without subsequently employing them. In 1983 YOP was replaced by the Youth Training Scheme (YTS), initially a 12-month work-based programme of basic vocational training and experience with 13 weeks off-the-job training or further education.'

http://www.cipd.co.uk/subjects/lrnan...l/thistory.htm

[Pendle Red]

Does it create a job at the End of it?

What wage will be paid?

What plans are in place to ensure the people on the Scheme receive the correct training, will there be any qualifications at the End of it?

[garinda]

Originally Posted by andrewb

They haven't been tried before. I understand you can't u-turn on the matter because that would mean you'd have been wrong at somepoint on Accringtonweb. Nevermind Gary, it happens to the best of us.

No need for a U-turn, I've said from the off this proposal seems ill-conceived, and I would have been more impressed with a much tougher stance, rather than this approach.

[Pendle Red]

andrewb
simple question if you were in the position of this proposal would your judgement still be the same?

[Stanleymad]

Trouble is benefits has become a culture & simply mathematically makes more sence to have some benefit related income than working soley as the expectation was in the generations before. Wages comparable to benefits, means its easier to play on yer playstation all day rather than a hard days graft, unfortunately until the desirable income to work rather than claim, the idea will be flawed in the too pc/everybodies rights etc is balanced. The gov in place promised affordable childcare available to anyone who needs it, mmm not much of that around & requires tax credits to offset the huge costs. Employment needs a overhaul as it doesn't meet the needs to the workforce with families & generally now there is both parents needing to work, flexi time/job share/part time generally is a pain in the butt, as the working tax credits are based on min hours rather than wage, 16hrs is the min requirement but a lot of employers are bypassing this by offering employment upto 15hrs p/w, meaning that if u take the job u cant claim working tax or have to get 2 p/t jobs in order to afford to live or to get the entitlement.

Unfortunatley the price of living & the goverment have effectively made the benefit trap a wider trap for majority of people, gone are the days like my childhood where one goes out to work & managed to upkeep his/her family, mortgage & 1 holiday a year without benefits other than the child benefit which wasn't much. Gone is the open job market where employers were crying out for factory/mill workers that took the unskilled, like walking from 1 job straight to another [what a lucky generation u were hehe], now its about skills, experience, wages, & heavy competition for a job not only with our own workers now its opened to europeans!!

Whether the Thatcherism years have made the generations from it greedier & killing off many labour forces, expetation high, that has gone beyond repair, fine to blame the current government but thatcher cut the grain 1st.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by Pendle Red

andrewb
simple question if you were in the position of this proposal would your judgement still be the same?

As in if I was unemployed? Yes of course it would be the same because I don't believe in being paid to not work. Why should somebody who works 40 hours at week on minimum wage pay for me to not work?

[garinda]

Originally Posted by andrewb

As in if I was unemployed? Yes of course it would be the same because I don't believe in being paid to not work. Why should somebody who works 40 hours at week on minimum wage pay for me to not work?

I'd hope that if you were ever in that situation you actually went out and found a job, mainly because the benefits system was so unattractive it wouldn't be a long term option...then you wouldn't even need to go on any daft scheme.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by garinda

I'd hope that if you were ever in that situation you actually went out and found a job, mainly because the benefits system was so unattractive it wouldn't be a long term option...then you wouldn't even need to go on any daft scheme.

But if I lacked skills required for a job it would be fantastic to get training in order to help me work for a living.

[Stanleymad]

Unfortunately altho your conservative ideas are nice on paper albeit not new, having done many years of voluntary work within the community unpaid, im looking for work & yet to no avail. Trouble with the idea the BIG FLAW, is that as i find ..... is that im in demand if i work voluntary they cant wait to take me on, bend over backwards which is lovely BUT, thats as far as it leads me, it hasn't led to fruitful employment nor does it impress as much as u would think on your CV. The point being employers would be falling over themselves to get voluntary workers especially if there are perks for then whilst the bonus of not costing them any wages, so effectively getting many weeks work for nowt, so when it comes to the end of the period of this new deal idea for a person they will be chucked to scrap heap as employer can have a reel of free workers, laughing to the bank, where the person who hopes to gain a paid job afterwards will join a queue of others in mean time will be having to claim something.

There will always be jobs going for people wanting/required to work unpaid but as for paid employment - its a different story.

[Loz]

I have to say i went on a similar scheme a couple of years ago where you went and looked for jobs for hours 3 or 4 times a week and you could phone employers from there and they provided you with paper and envelopes and stamps and for me it was great.
I found a job within a month and am still there now.
Maybe the scheme just needs a few changes to make it work.