Ukraine - Page 2

Neil · 16-04-2014, 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Procter

I am very surprised that there has been no debate about the goings on in the Ukraine.We really do need to stand up to Russia over this, otherwise where will it all end?

Maybe it's because we don't really care about it.

cashman · 16-04-2014, 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil

Maybe it's because we don't really care about it.

That could certainly have a bearing on the situation.

Jim Procter · 16-04-2014, 14:48

I despair sometimes about the attitude of little englanders.

cashman · 16-04-2014, 14:54

I despair about those who believe everything they are told.

Margaret Pilkington · 16-04-2014, 15:39

I despair of those who think we should wet nurse the world...take in the hordes, whilst leaving our own poor to stuggle along.
We need to sort out the problems in our own back yard...not meddle in the back yards of others.
Wars solve nothing..they just make money for those who are already rich...and they take the sons(and daughters) from families.

Surely two world wars and the conflict in Afghanistan and Iraq should have taught us that.
Only fools fail to learn from history.

cashman · 16-04-2014, 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Only fools fail to learn from history.

Nailed it in one.

DaveinGermany · 16-04-2014, 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Procter

I despair sometimes about the attitude of little englanders.

Bit scathing that Jim, just because some folk don't have any real strong opinion one way or another about Ukraine, doesn't make them little Englanders. Most folk have got concerns of their own which are far more pressing & closer at hand.

So what would you have us do then? Bearing in mind our Military have been pretty much involved in ongoing foreign conflicts since 1991 on & off while at the same time having their numbers & budgets cut.

cashman · 16-04-2014, 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

Bit scathing that Jim, just because some folk don't have any real strong opinion one way or another about Ukraine, doesn't make them little Englanders. Most folk have got concerns of their own which are far more pressing & closer at hand.
.

Well thats right n i know yeh will find this hard to believe, but i can do scathing also, "Its a Typical Little Tory Attitude"

Wynonie Harris · 16-04-2014, 21:23

Surely, the typical Little Englander approach is to go charging in there to sort out Johnny Foreigner?

Neil · 17-04-2014, 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Procter

I despair sometimes about the attitude of little englanders.

Why do you care if Russia want to retake over some country that they first took 231 years ago in 1783?
It only became part of Ukraine in 1953 and was all part of the Soviet Union then so it didn't really make any difference. Crimea is and autonomous republic anyway so elected it's own parliament so was as good as an independent country with the majority of it's population seeing themselves as Russian.

What do you see is wrong with what has happened and why should we do anything about it?

Why is it that in this and other western countries we always assume the under dog is correct and the big boys are the evil ones we should stop?

Jim Procter · 17-04-2014, 13:48

Because Neil, it won't end with the Ukraine, it will be the Baltic States next, Latvia Lithuania etc. Putin is a bully who wants to protect Russia by having a buffer zone around his territory,so that his people are not tempted to ask why they are so poor when the west is so rich.Him and his rich oligarchs have carved Russia up to the detriment of his own people.As for turning off the gas as some people fear,he knows that he needs the wests money to shore up his evil empire. All bullies are afraid of being stood up to, Putin is no different.

Margaret Pilkington · 17-04-2014, 16:08

I think that Putin also knows that the UK has very little that would be a threat to him.
In fact most of Europe is in the same boat......and I don't think that the US has the stomach for such a conflict.

Putin is a little man who wants to appear big.
As for him not turning off the gas......he would do it in a heartbeat. How long do you think it would be before the countries who rely on Gazprom to capitulate?
My guess is not very long. So he would have no fear of losing money.

Eric · 17-04-2014, 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Procter

Because Neil, it won't end with the Ukraine, it will be the Baltic States next, Latvia Lithuania etc. Putin is a bully who wants to protect Russia by having a buffer zone around his territory,so that his people are not tempted to ask why they are so poor when the west is so rich.Him and his rich oligarchs have carved Russia up to the detriment of his own people.As for turning off the gas as some people fear,he knows that he needs the wests money to shore up his evil empire. All bullies are afraid of being stood up to, Putin is no different.

Ah ... a new "domino theory" ... I don't think so. And from whom is this "buffer" zone going to protect Mother Russia? (This is the Russia that can't effectively contain Chechnya, whatever and wherever the place is.) This ain't the late 30s. The Wehrmacht is not massing on the frontiers of Eastern Europe. Since they bought Europe the Germans have become warm and fuzzy; the Teutonic Hordes are no more. There is only one super power in the world, and they have armed themselves into impotence. Not only that, the yanks, altho' they talk tough, really don't want to send their sons into battle again. They've had enough with Iraq ... a trillion dollar FUBAR if ever there was one ... and Afghanistan. And President Obama is in his second term ... he doesn't have to worry about re-election. He can afford to be called "weak on Russia"; he doesn't have to pander to fat, white, rich, NRA supporting, Republican males who are eager to fight to the last drop of blood and their guns are pulled from their cold dead hands

... well, metaphorically anyway. The real blood will be shed by the poor sods who go into harms way ... usually poor kids with no political or dollar pull to keep then safe at home. Sorry about the rant

The problems in the Ukraine will be settled diplomatically and sort of peacefully. If I'm wrong, and the nuclear shiite hits the swiftly rotating object, I will just have to send my mouth way down south, and kiss my ass goodbye.

Oh, and I was going to point out that the unequal distribution of wealth in Russia is probably no worse than it is in the UK, the US, even here. Americans buy Premier League teams too.

Less · 18-04-2014, 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Procter

Because Neil, it won't end with the Ukraine, it will be the Baltic States next, Latvia Lithuania etc. Putin is a bully who wants to protect Russia by having a buffer zone around his territory,so that his people are not tempted to ask why they are so poor when the west is so rich.Him and his rich oligarchs have carved Russia up to the detriment of his own people.As for turning off the gas as some people fear,he knows that he needs the wests money to shore up his evil empire. All bullies are afraid of being stood up to, Putin is no different.

How very strange, I live in the west, like many a good little englander I wouldn't consider myself rich enough to want to send someone else's son to fight the Russians.
Let them have a buffer zone, though if you object, anytime you want to go and chastise this so called bully I won't stop you.

Boeing Guy · 18-04-2014, 05:50

I am with Less on this. There is little to gain from all of this, Putin is flexing his power with an easy target, having visited Ukraine with work, Kiev, Donetsk and Mariupol, there is little evidence of any wealth there.
It looks just like any other ex Soviet state.
So we go in and Vlad the mad decides to use his SS25's, forcing us to use our Tridents.......

Somehow, like other Nuclear states, I cannot see us getting too involved