What has happened to Britain?

[pendy]

I don't agree with bashing the US regardless, but any nation who interferes in another nation's democratic elections (such as Nicaragua) when they disagree with the result, is a bit suspect in my book. I don't like Tony Blair, but he was elected democratically (insofar as any voting system like ours is democratic). Anyway, we have international companies who wield more power than many nations, whose interests do they have at heart?

We are in danger of becoming a third world country, we are selling out right, left and centre. I doubt we would have our wonderful Human Rights Act if it was not for the fact that Cherie Booth (aka Mrs Blair) is the head of Matrix Chambers, which is the largest human rights chambers in the country, making pots of money out of it. It does seem that everybody in the world has human rights except for those of us who were born here, whose parents and grandparents worked, fought, and in some cases, died, for this country.

Or am I over-reacting?

[Doug]

Originally Posted by JohnW

Hi Doug,

You say you hope to see Tony Blair ousted at the next election. My only concern is, who are you going to elect in his place? From what I've seen of the likely contenders, he is the best of a very mediocre lot, and that is coming from someone who stands right of centre (center).

JohnW

Who me, Bloody hell John I don't like any of the bu**ers, but I would vote for any party that could deliver a decent Social Policy in this country. Foreign policy will all ways be a balancing act between the US and Europe, but I don’t believe in the kowtowing that central government persist in doing to both powers, in particular the US.

However, I think your original reference was aimed at Darby in this instance, so I will give way sir.

[JohnW]

Sorry Doug, yes, my question should have been addressed to Darby. Perhaps he will see this and let us know his thoughts.

[Mickey_T_Fish]

I do think that there is a reason to link Britain's problems with the USA, for one simple reason.

I didn't agree with the Bush policies on Iraq, but that shouldn't have affected me. Instead, what we have is a leader (and most of those previous to him that I remember were exactly the same) who is incapable of independent thought. When George Dubya whistles, Blair comes scampering. Getting involved in the mess that is Iraq (and will continue to be a mess for years to come, costing us untold amounts of money) was a shameless vote-catching decision for Blair (in retrospect maybe it won't turn out to be the great idea he thought it was), and the money could have been spent on education, medicine, homelessness, sports, reducing taxes, etc. etc. etc.

This isn't a dig at America (despite the way it sounds!) - what America does is it's own business (for the most part). Iit's a moan about the fact that every British prime minister since Maggie at least (I was far too young to know much about politics before that!) blindly allies themselves with every single decision the USA makes, no matter what the consequence.

And who do we replace him with? What do you call a man with a condom on his face? F**k Nose!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Perhaps we should take a leaf out of Germany's book and let economists run the country.

[Darby]

Hello JohnW,

That's a good question and one that can be answered in many ways. However, this is my humble opinion:
The current democratic system used throughout the world is no longer a sensible approach to humanity. Politicians of every side, are corrupt in one form or another. And they most certainly do not listed and react to the electorate.
The cost of being elected is financially so high that they either need millions of their own money or they have to "obtain" it from another source. That could be a political party, who in turn "obtain" their funding from various (and sometimes questionable sources). If a millionaire "gives to these parties, they expect something in return (well, nobody does something for nothing).
In short, the complete system needs changing. Politicians should not get the media publicity that they do, and they should also not get the visbility that they seem to need.
The "pollies" think that they must introduce legislation at every turn, TAX the working people beyond the pale, spend OUR money as THEY see fit, and create a world that THEY want. Practical aspects must be avoided as that only highlights the flaws in their policies.

I do not have a replacement "idea" in my pocket, I only know that this system is failing everybody and the majority has become the minority.
Not one politician can really claim to have been elected by a majority, as the average turn out at a general election is somewhere in the region of 60%, and a majority from the 60% C is not a majority from the 100% of electorate.

So much for democracy.

In Belgium, everybody must vote at a general election on pain of being given a stiff fine. I am not advocating that we have such a system, but it ensures that a true majority will be achieved. On the other hand, a deep thinking, educated person, may review each political parties manifesto, take considerable effort in understanding the options and make his/her vote accordingly. This however, can be negated simply by an "old dear" looking at a picture of a candidate and deciding "that he looks a nice man", and voting for him!!!
Returning to your original question, currently there is not one politician or political party in the UK, that is worth voting for. Most are bad, and the rest are very bad.
My personal method of highlighting this would be to campaign on the lines of: "if you don't like any of the candidates "Spoil your vote". If all those people who are fed-up with the politicians did so, the number of "spoiled" votes would then be so high that no political party could ignore them, and that would put the cat amongst the pidgeons.

A vote for any extremist does nothing to alter the situation. Look how the main political parties reacted to the success of the BNP in Burnley! It just showed the world that NuLabour and the Cons and Dems, cannot abide the democratic success of anybody else!!

They all need a shake-up!!

[Darby]

Mickey T Fish,
QUOTE: And who do we replace him with? What do you call a man with a condom on his face? F**k Nose!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Perhaps we should take a leaf out of Germany's book and let economists run the country.

In Germany the economists do not run the country, business does that. Schröder needs money to get elected...and it comes from big, big business, who then demand payback!! He's just the mouthpiece.

[JohnW]

Hi Mickey,

Thank you for your reply. I do understand where you are coming from but don't see why you should blame the US because the Prime Minister aligns himself with their foreign policy. He does have the option, like every other country (France for example)so why not just blame your Prime Minister. The fact is, I think that the relationship between the two countries is misquoted in Britain. I don't believe the American people look upon Blair as someone who comes scampering. They look upon him, and the UK, as their greatest friend and ally. A country on which they can rely when tough decisions have to be made. He is very popular over here, as are the British people. We seem to be looking at the relationship in two different ways. I can only presume that the main reason for this is the fact that, of the two powers, America is obviously the strongest, so in Britain, it is felt that you are playing a subservient role. I can tell you that, the people of America to whom I have spoken, value the friendship and alliance of the British very much indeed, and look upon it as a partnership rather than the UK being subservient in any way. There seems to be a lack of self esteem in the UK at the moment which, it seems, does not allow you to look at the realtionship in this way.

Iraq is a debacle. Isn't every war just that? Was it the right decision to go in? Who the hell really knows? We, the public, only know a small percentage of what really goes on and are in a poor position to make a knowledgeable judgement. When we have elected our leaders we have to live by their decisions. It certainly isn't a perfect system but there is no such thing as a perfect system. It's the best one so far. We in the 'western' world, for want of a better name, are doing a hell of a lot better than anyone else. That is pretty obvious from the fact that everyone else wants to come and live in our countries.

Someone has to keep the middle east in check. Let's be honest here. Everyone says "it's all about the oil" so let's say that it is. The only thing the middle east has is oil. The only reason that oil is of any value whatsoever is western technology. If it wasn't for that, they'd still be grubbing around in the sand looking for lizards to eat. They just happen to be sat on underground lakes of the stuff that drives the economies of every industrial country in the world. But, that little area can hold the whole world to ransom. Let us not make any bones about the importance of the oil flow. If it doesn't flow freely, then the Western economies are in real trouble. If that happens, the whole damn world will feel the crunch. It would be a total disaster. People moan about America, but there is an awful lot of money leaves these shores for overseas aid, not all of it "official". Americans are very generous by nature and millions of dollars are donated privately to world charities every year. If we in the west go to the wall, the whole world will also. Quite frankly, I'll be glad when the middle eastern oil runs out and they weild no power in the world. There is plenty of oil in other countries. I believe Australia has plenty, I can only presume that the Americans are saving the Alaskan oil for a rainy day. They keep making excuses about 'environment' for not going in to get it, but it will be pumped out one day I guarantee it.

I am aware that I always jump to the defence of the US but I do feel very strongly about this subject. I believe them to be the most misunderstood people. I, for one, am very glad that the UK and the US have a special relationship because I have such a great love for both the two countries and the people.

[JohnW]

Hi Darby,

Yes I agree. The whole system is corrupt, but as I say above to Mickey, it's the best one devised so far. I do not know the answers and neither does anyone else for that matter. As soon as you introduce the 'human factor' to any system there will be problems. "That's Life" as Esther would say. It's a tough world, we've just got to get on with it. The fact is, that if you vote out Blair you will be voting someone else in. To be honest, I don't see any serious contender. He looks to be the best you have.

[Darby]

JohnW,

If he's the best we got...then god help us. He may look attractive and supportive from the other side of the pond, but we've got to live with his maniac internal policies...and destruction of our society.!!

As Franco once said of getting a helping hand from Adolph "When you're drowning you don't ask the name of the person who's hand pulls you out, neither do you refuse his help on the grounds of his politics"

[pendy]

John - you may be right that Americans are very generous, but it is a sad fact that a great many of them have, over the years, been very generous towards the IRA, who have never been noted for their goodwill towards America's greatest friend and ally, i.e. us.

As to our own poor little nation, the successes of extremist parties in Burnley and in Blackburn shows the feeling of the electorate. If the mainstream parties won't listen, rest assured the extremists will. That's how Adolph got in.

[JohnW]

Pendy, - Unfortunately it is a fact that the IRA had some monetary support from this side of the pond. "A great many of them" is a gross exageration however. There are pockets of misguided Irish Americans mainly in Boston, New York and San Fransisco who made donations through Noraid. That is a sad fact which I cannot deny. There are probably a good few misguided English Muslems who send donations to terrorist organisations of middle eastern origin! However, you will notice that since George W. has outlawed terrorism and told the world that if you harbour terrorists you will be brought to book, the IRA does not seem to hold its head so high.

[Doug]

Oh John forgive me, I don't believe for one minute that that nice mania crazed President of your adoptive country and his war on terrorism had any bearing on the IRA. The Irish came to the table long before September 11. Just to under pin these issues further the Real IRA, the IRA and a few under sub groups are still armed and very, very dangerous. There is known collusion between known Arab extremist groups that both receive training and funding organizations funded from money provided by Home Support Groups like Noraid.

[JohnW]

The Irish have been "at the table" for ages, but the bombs were still exploding. I haven't actually heard of any IRA bombs going off since the post 9/11 war on terrorism began. I could be wrong. However, as neither of us are privy to what goes on at IRA 'board meetings' we are never likely to know the exact reasons for their quieting. We can only draw our own conclusions.

[Bazf]

I missed a good bit of this debate because I had to work late and boy is it moving on, I personally agree with JW but being over this side of the pond you do get a different perspective of things my dad a die hard Labor supporter is considering voting conservative only because of Tony Blair, everything we hear over here is how good he is and if hes under pressure he turns things around so I will go with the UK opinion and stay out of that argument.
As for the middle east should we have gone in to Iraq? I mentioned in a previous post I was in the first one (RAF) I did end up in Kuwait on EOD duties (clearing up the mess the Iraq's left behind) and after leaving the forces I worked in the UAE for 6yrs, all the Arabs I worked with and 100% of the ones I meet said Sadam had to be stopped and the only people who could do it was the Americans and British. Most of the countries, in fact all of the countries in the middle east are a form of dictatorship and one of the biggest things for a muslim is not to lose face so no muslim is going to openly support western involment as it looks like a weakness and nonalignment but underneath they are quite happy with what is going on.

[Doug]

John, I consider you a friend and a gentleman. It is not my intention patronise or criticise the original comment or your reply. You are however quite right in respect of your point that the bombs still go off on occasion, fund raising still goes on, as does the rhetoric. But can I ask in this man’s crusade on Terrorism when he will act to stem the flow of funding world wide to non Muslim terrorist groups.