What is the alternative?

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by monkey hanger

oh and how the lefties would love that. the beeb would have it as the main headline showing how some poor foreigner was hounded for payment they OWED to the nhs and their human rights were abused by having to pay it. we then could have the tin rattlers on the streets to try to get us to pay the money for them with corbyn and abbott standing up in parliament saying how bad we treat our foreign visitors.

Let the loony lefties and the BBC bleat...it is what they are famed for and really the only thing they are truly good at(well, they have had plenty of practice, to be fair).
These people are the first to complain about how the NHS is being left short of funds(it isn't shortage of funds which cripples the NHS, it is the layers of bureaucracy and people who do little to improve patient care but are paid eye watering salaries)
Try going to America or Australia and getting treatment for injuries/illness....you have to pay. they will have someone rendering aid, but on the other side of the trolley there will be an administrative assistant taking your insurance/credit card details.
Even if you go on the continent...the treatment is not free...so why should it be free to all comers here?
It is called the National Health Service not the international health service.
It is for the people who have paid into the sytem...anyone else better have travel insurance which covers ill health.

The NHS is not rigorous enough in the collection of moeny owed to them for trearment

[monkey hanger]

It is called the National Health Service not the international health service.
It is for the people who have paid into the sytem...anyone else better have travel insurance which covers ill health.

that sounds too much like common sense to me margaret. its a dying trait of people nowadays and they try to call it a symplistic solutions. the thing is those at the top do not have any solutions trying to keep everyone happy at the same time.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Today in one of the online articles I have read, it says that very few trusts have a dedicated overseas visitors manager to identify those not entitled to free care.

EVERY trust in the country should have an Overseas Visitors Manager...they would be repsonsible for identifying, billing and chasing these people for payment.
we have NO responsibility to treat these patients without charging them....and many f them come here with the prime aim of getting treatment at no cost, because they know they can.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by monkey hanger

It is called the National Health Service not the international health service.
It is for the people who have paid into the sytem...anyone else better have travel insurance which covers ill health.

that sounds too much like common sense to me margaret. its a dying trait of people nowadays and they try to call it a symplistic solutions. the thing is those at the top do not have any solutions trying to keep everyone happy at the same time.

It is a common sense approach. Not really simplistic. Why would you make things more difficult to work out? You would only do that if you were working to some hidden agenda(and that might be the case here....make NHS care so difficult to access that people will beg for privatisation. I am not saying that this is what is happening here, but just conjecturing)

Many of the problems which are deemed 'insurmountable' are of little interest to those in high places, because they are untouched by these issues...so there is nothing in it for them.
They are not inconvenienced by having to wait for their cataracts to be treated...or have a new hip or knee...or just see a GP.
I feel pretty damn sure if these issues DID impact on their lives, then there would be a lot more invested in finding solutions.

Call me cynical if you like,but that is how I see it.

[Barrie Yates]

When I lived in the US you had to produce either a Medical Insurance Card (which they then checked to see what was covered), or a Credit Card which was swiped and as soon as an estimated cost of treatment was known that amount was blocked on to your CC. Of course Identity Cards would allow any hospital to determine whether you needed to provide Health Insurance or a Credit Card.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Identity cards are not necessary to do that.
I have an NHS number and a national insurance number.That should be enough.

If no one is checking people's details then it sends out the message that anyone can come and get treatment...many large hospitals in areas where the population is fluid, have no one checking who is entitled to treatment and who isn't.

[DaveinGermany]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

I have an NHS number and a national insurance number.That should be enough.

Aye, the NHS number is issued for a patient after the presentation of an NI number on first turn to for treatment, all fine so far, but as the Country is chucking out NI numbers left, right & centre (so the news is informing us) to every Abdul, Amir, Zlatan & Poppov ......

[Margaret Pilkington]

If someone has a NI number then they are entitled to treatment as they are not a health tourist visiting purely to get treatment.

[DaveinGermany]

I beg to differ on that comment Ma, it has been stated often enough by politicoes & immigration officials that there is a vast divergence between NI numbers issued & immigration numbers. this to my mind highlights the fact that some come here with the aim of getting an NI number (to get free NHS treatment) and to access the available benefits without the intention to work.

Much as I dislike & mistrust Al Beeb, here's one of their articles, it doesn't quite cover the point I'm trying to make but at short notice (and it being 07.30 in the morning here & I'll be heading to work in 10 minutes) it's the best I can offer at present.

NI numbers prompt row over 1.2m EU 'immigration gap' - BBC News

[Margaret Pilkington]

I take your point, but that is not the issue that I was posting about.
If someone has a NI number then they can work legally here.(and access services for which they have paid nothing...an which those of us who have contributed over the years, are paying for).
Whether they DO work, pay taxes and NI contributions is a whole other story...and maybe the substance for another thread.
If they do not have an NI number then they cannot work legally...they will pay nothing in income tax or contribute to the NHS.

This is really not the issue that I was posting about. The issue that I was posting about was the fact that someone will come here from another country and avail themselves of NHS care and treatment.
I have seen it first hand when I was working.
Elderly(and some not so elderly) come to stay with family for a holiday, and while here get surgery or treatment for conditions that, in their home country, they would have to pay for.

A couple of years ago a woman who was expecting a multiple birth flew here, had her babies(which were premature and were in neonatal intensive care for quite a while) racked up care that cost us nearly half a million quid(well, no I exaggerate, it was £400,000) and no efforts were made to get that money.

That is a large part of the issue. There is no one, in many of the NHS hospitals, charged with the responsibility of seeking out those who should be paying...and even less effort is expended in making sure that they do.

Now I have quoted just one incident. How many nurses would that one patients care have paid for?

The issue of uncontrolled immigration on ALL public services and the infrastructure of society was not considered when Tony Blair supported multiculturalism...the long term consequences of immigration was not were thought out...and now we pay.

It has little effect on the elite...other than the fact that they can employ cheap cleaners, and other domestic staff.
They will not be inconvenienced by crowded NHS facilities, a wait for surgery, a wait to see a GP....no, that is you and me Son and the many who are taken for mugs by politicians.

[Margaret Pilkington]

As for EU Nationals...I thought that they were allowed to access NHS care while they were here...And that the cost of their treatment is retrieved from their home country by the NHS.
If I am wrong about this then I feel pretty sure someone will enlighten me.

[Barrie Yates]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

As for EU Nationals...I thought that they were allowed to access NHS care while they were here...And that the cost of their treatment is retrieved from their home country by the NHS.
If I am wrong about this then I feel pretty sure someone will enlighten me.

They are supposed to hold a European Health Card (EHC), and then the NHS can claim back, from the country that issued the card, all the costs incurred. There are reports that the NHS doesn't chase up these payments. The reverse applies for British Nationals that go to any EU country. We have to apply through NHS Newcastle (or did), which is what we did when we went to live in France. Cashy probably had to do the same when he was in Spain.

[Margaret Pilkington]

I know that the NHS is very lax at chasing the money...because no one is tasked to do it.
Looking at reports, there are not that many hospitals with dedicated staff to do the job.

I know that before I retired, a member from the records department would come to the ward to take details from any person the nurses identified as being subject to costs.
Private conversations with members of the records team who did this job, make me absolutely sure that very little(if any) of the money(at that time) was actually collected.

Yet, when I was involved in a road accident I was sent a bill for £73 pounds for my visit to A&E....this despite the fact that I pay my NI contributions.
I paid and was later reimbursed by my insurance company.

[monkey hanger]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

I know that the NHS is very lax at chasing the money...because no one is tasked to do it.
Looking at reports, there are not that many hospitals with dedicated staff to do the job.

I know that before I retired, a member from the records department would come to the ward to take details from any person the nurses identify
Private conversations with members of the records team who did this job, make me absolutely sure that very little(if any) of the money(at that time) was actually collected.

if that is the case then its absolutely disgusting. no point banging on about lack of money for the NHS when thousands of pounds is being thrown away like that. would hate to go down the privatisation line but i,m sure that a private company would chase any money that is owed to them.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Today in one of the online articles I have read, it says that very few trusts have a dedicated overseas visitors manager to identify those not entitled to free care.

EVERY trust in the country should have an Overseas Visitors Manager...they would be responsible for identifying, billing and chasing these people for payment.
we have NO responsibility to treat these patients without charging them....and many of them come here with the prime aim of getting treatment at no cost, because they know they can.

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

I know that the NHS is very lax at chasing the money...because no one is tasked to do it.
Looking at reports, there are not that many hospitals with dedicated staff to do the job.

I know that before I retired, a member from the records department would come to the ward to take details from any person the nurses identify
Private conversations with members of the records team who did this job, make me absolutely sure that very little(if any) of the money(at that time) was actually collected.

You are looking at it the wrong way round. Everyone who attends hospital/GP should have to prove they are entitled to treatment or produce a payment means first. Like Dave said happens in Germany.