What's the use?

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

In that case, he shouldn't have made a "cast-iron" promise on it in his attempt to look tough on Europe.

I'll tell you one way to solve it, though, Jaysay - how about the next Tory government having a referendum on the whole question of our EU membership? You know in your heart of hearts he wouldn't dare, because he knows what the answer would be! Much better to carry on with the illusion that somehow we can be part of the EU but still independent!

Am I right in thinking that if a referendum were held ... let's say on a simple "yes" or "no" question .... that the answer would be a resounding "No"?

Not my problem, but a national referendum would appear to be the only fair way of dealing with the question ... fair, that is, to the people in the UK. Both sides can then bring their arguments out into the open and allow the voters to choose. Twice in the last two decades, Quebec has voted on the question of separation from Canada ... and on both occasions Quebecois voted to stay in Confederation ... everything seems quiet now. But the point is, that when the future of our country was at stake, the matter was dealt with democratically ... everything out in the open. Looks to me like the future of your country is at stake. The time seems to have come for the grass roots members of all political parties to remind the big wigs that the power is with the people.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Eric

Am I right in thinking that if a referendum were held ... let's say on a simple "yes" or "no" question .... that the answer would be a resounding "No"?

Not my problem, but a national referendum would appear to be the only fair way of dealing with the question ... fair, that is, to the people in the UK. Both sides can then bring their arguments out into the open and allow the voters to choose. Twice in the last two decades, Quebec has voted on the question of separation from Canada ... and on both occasions Quebecois voted to stay in Confederation ... everything seems quiet now. But the point is, that when the future of our country was at stake, the matter was dealt with democratically ... everything out in the open. Looks to me like the future of your country is at stake. The time seems to have come for the grass roots members of all political parties to remind the big wigs that the power is with the people.

The last time we had a referendum on our membership, when it was still called the Common Market, and was purely a trade alliance, was way back in 1975.

At the last General Election Labour promised there would be another referendum if they won. Something Brown has shamefully renegaded on.

Tory-Lite had made a similar promise, if they win the forthcoming General Election. Though this seems it won't now happen, because the Lisbon Treaty is/has been ratified.

Instead of being members of an economic trade alliance, we've aquired another (more powerful) level of government, and the very sovereignty of the country has been eroded, and the man and woman in the street doesn't have the slightest clue how this has come about.

All opinion polls show the majority of the population aren't happy with the present situation.

Another worry for the electorate, that the main political parties seem able to turn a blind eye to.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by garinda

The last time we had a referendum on our membership, when it was still called the Common Market, and was purely a trade alliance, was way back in 1975.

At the last General Election Labour promised there would be another referendum if they won. Something Brown has shamefully renegaded on.

Tory-Lite had made a similar promise, if they win the forthcoming General Election. Though this seems it won't now happen, because the Lisbon Treaty is/has been ratified.

Instead of being members of an economic trade alliance, we've aquired another (more powerful) level of government, and the very sovereignty of the country has been eroded, and the man and woman in the street doesn't have the slightest clue how this has come about.

All opinion polls show the majority of the population aren't happy with the present situation.

Another worry for the electorate, that the main political parties seem able to turn a blind eye to.

I always thought that the Common Market was a good idea ... maybe more than that, an inevitability, like NAFTA ... but a United States of Europe, I don't be thinking so. I just can't see what is in it for the UK But if the Lisbon Treaty has been ratified by, what is it, twenty seven different govts., there must be some perceived benefit. Maybe I'm just too dense to see it. Many Canadians felt that the Federal Govt. (Progressive Conservatives at the time at the time of NAFTA) was headed towards something more than a trade agreement with the US, and the voters punished the PCs in a general election ... the tories were reduced from a majority in parliament to a rump of, I think, four members ... the party was effectively destroyed ... if this little bit of Canadian political history has any point, it is that democracy can work in dramatic ways.

[Margaret Pilkington]

We have given away our sovereignty, our identity and our legal independence....and for what? So the faceless, unelected members in Brussels can dictate on all apsects of our daily lives....and for this we are given the privilege of paying vast sums of money into the EU pot.
We have been bamboozled and hoodwinked into believing that we could not exist outside of the European Union......it felt like a forced marriage in 1975......and it still feels like that now.
Whatever David Cameron might say, he will never be able to re-negotiate different terms for the UK, if he thinks that he will be able to do this he is dreaming.
We can kiss goodbye to democracy.

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by garinda

All opinion polls show the majority of the population aren't happy with the present situation.

Another worry for the electorate, that the main political parties seem able to turn a blind eye to.

A situation which is well illustrated on here. Our resident Tory members like to pretend they're unhappy with the EU, but are quite happy to carry on supporting a pro-EU party. It would be interesting to hear what Tory councillors think, but none of them have the bottle to join Accyweb.

As for our Labour party members and councillors, a deafening silence!

[Margaret Pilkington]

The member states who didn't ratify the treaty were sent away until they came up with the right answer.........we in the UK were not given a choice or a voice...it was presented to us as a fait accompli.......I fear that there is little chance of us ever being given the option of a say in our political future.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Eric

I always thought that the Common Market was a good idea ... maybe more than that, an inevitability, like NAFTA ... but a United States of Europe, I don't be thinking so. I just can't see what is in it for the UK But if the Lisbon Treaty has been ratified by, what is it, twenty seven different govts., there must be some perceived benefit. Maybe I'm just too dense to see it. Many Canadians felt that the Federal Govt. (Progressive Conservatives at the time at the time of NAFTA) was headed towards something more than a trade agreement with the US, and the voters punished the PCs in a general election ... the tories were reduced from a majority in parliament to a rump of, I think, four members ... the party was effectively destroyed ... if this little bit of Canadian political history has any point, it is that democracy can work in dramatic ways.

In 1975, when the majority of the electorate voted to continue our membership, they did so because it was at that time a trade and economic union. Not what by stealth, it has become now, a body that ultimately decides on the laws we are governed by.

Turkey, with the vast part of it in Asia, will become a member within the next ten years.

Not to worry.

We'll probably be bankrupt before then, so won't have to send Child Support Benefit to any of the 71 million Turks who will be eligible to work here, and claiming for offspring back in Turkey.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

The member states who didn't ratify the treaty were sent away until they came up with the right answer.........we in the UK were not given a choice or a voice...it was presented to us as a fait accompli.......I fear that there is little chance of us ever being given the option of a say in our political future.

that is quite correct, even more frightening to me though is did some folk actually think we ever had a say at any point in time?

[garinda]

....and if we were disgusted at the expenses scandals in our Town Hall, and at Westminster, why aren't we storming Brussels, because that gravy train puts all the others to shame?

[MargaretR]

It isn't democracy...........It's slavery

[Eric]

Originally Posted by MargaretR

It isn't democracy...........It's slavery

That's what you get when you surrender without fighting the battle, like the French in 1940 ...

Ever since Confederation in 1867, the main focus of every Federal govt. has been the struggle to maintain national unity in the face of so much diversity that .... I would need to write a book to explain it. The forces threatening to tear this country apart (and Quebec seperatism is only one of them) are always in a delicate balance with those holding us together. Also, we share this continent with the world's only remaining super power. It's a constant battle ... but we are still here, still fighting disintegration; and those of us who think about it realize that failure is always an option. But in the words of one of your poets: "Say not the struggle naught availeth."

[jules58]

It does not matter who you vote for and there promises of what they will put in practise. if its labour, conseratives or any other party, they all have the same problems to deal with, and its just a case of how much money do we throw at it and who we put in the driving seat to throwing that money. I watch question time and other political media and NO ONE!!!!! says they will get down to the peoples level and look at things from the bottom up, wall the streets, walk the wards, walk the estates of this country. They go from there house( which they get more or less paid for by claming exspenes) to there little meeting and everything they decide on is made of things dreamed up by thinks tanks, who think this might work, and give its 2 years to find out. In the mean time its was a load of CRAP!!!!!! and people have dead. Dont get me wrong people make the wrong paths some time,
It all boilers down to money and the united kingdom has NONE, we are skint.
I hope we do join the euopean union and ( with a strong leader) get back some off the money we put in to building up other countries eg HALF of europe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Germany to be frank!!!!!!!!!

You vote for them and your doomed, you vote for them and your doomed. JUST DONT VOTE AND LIVE YOUR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MargaretR]

Originally Posted by jules58

It does not matter who you vote for and there promises of what they will put in practise.
. JUST DONT VOTE AND LIVE YOUR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A 'left and right' in politics is an illusion to make you think you have choice.
They both work to the Bildeburg agenda.
They create problems which they offer solutions for
BUT those solutions always involve loss of some freedom
.....slavery

[jules58]

Originally Posted by MargaretR

A 'left and right' in politics is an illusion to make you think you have choice.
They both work to the Bildeburg agenda.
They create problems which they offer solutions for
BUT those solutions always involve loss of some freedom
.....slavery

YOU talk the same dribble as the parties in this country do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! get to the point, looking after this country is very simple, we do it I mean the people, or someone else, eg europe. who do you think................

[Eric]

Originally Posted by MargaretR

A 'left and right' in politics is an illusion to make you think you have choice.
They both work to the Bildeburg agenda.
They create problems which they offer solutions for
BUT those solutions always involve loss of some freedom
.....slavery

All I see here, hon, is defeatism in another guise.

In any struggle, or battle if you want a more combative image, the chance of defeat is always there ... but as the British have shown throughout their history, you can lose a helluva lot of battles, and still win the war. Conversely, you can win a lot of battles and still lose the war ... this latter is the German way Although it sometimes crosses my mind that Germany lost the war, but seems to have won the peace.