When Secret Ballots are not so Secret.

Acrylic-bob · 05-04-2005, 11:24

A while ago we were discussing whether the voting system was truly annonymous and secret and whether it was possible for the council to tell who voted and how they voted. If I remember rightly we also had someone from an unspecified council saying that such things were not possible as the ballot papers were destroyed after the count.

What then are we to make of the revelations that have come out of the Birmingham Election Court this week. Namely that councils maintain a list called the "Marked List" which contains the details of who did or did not vote at the last election and that it was possible for the judge in the case to examine the ballot papers of the election in question and by means of the serial numbers on the ballot papers to ask individual voters if their vote was intentional and accurate?

Your vote is not secret.

They know if you voted, and WHO you voted for.

It makes one wonder why it is necessary to retain such information and what use it is put to.

Would it be unreasonable to speculate that it might have some influence on the provision or delivery of council services?

cashman · 05-04-2005, 11:55

you don't get good provision of services,even if you do vote anon.in fact provision of services,particularly collection of refuse is abysmal.

wayneyboy1942 · 05-04-2005, 12:24

I'm someone who believes everyone should vote,I make no secret that I vote labour, but the ballot is supposed to be a secret one, if this is what's going on true for who's benerfit is keeping this info?

PurpleLass · 05-04-2005, 12:27

[QUOTE=Acrylic-bob]

They know if you voted, and WHO you voted for. QUOTE]

And this surprises you , why?

removal-man · 05-04-2005, 13:44

my vote is secret i vote in my head and dont tell anyone. i then get on with what im doing and dont pay attention to who is in power, concern myself with what the council spends on daffodills or how my p*ss breaks the binmen take in a day. it always works out for the best.

WillowTheWhisp · 05-04-2005, 13:53

[QUOTE=PurpleLass]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob

They know if you voted, and WHO you voted for. QUOTE]

And this surprises you , why?

It should surprise us because we should be able to trust those whom we elect. Obviously if it doesn't surprise you you're already cynical enough to know that they can't be trusted.

Does it matter? Well yes it does because if we can't trust them over one thing why should we think we can trust them with anything?

PurpleLass · 05-04-2005, 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

Does it matter? Well yes it does because if we can't trust them over one thing why should we think we can trust them with anything?

Yes, I am too cynical about the voting process, particularly with regards to postal voting.

I agree with you it does matter. As a rule I don't trust politics or politicians - I think there are one or two trustworthy politicians out there but on the whole any system can be fiddled if people want to fiddle it.

chav1 · 05-04-2005, 14:20

if they didnt keep records of who voted what they wouldnt be able to catch those who cheat at elections

unless armed police or hit squads are going to come to my house and beat me up for voting for a particular party i dont care who knows who i vote for

WillowTheWhisp · 05-04-2005, 14:29

It's not the fact that they know who you vote for so much as the fact that they want us to believe that they don't know!

.

vorlon24 · 05-04-2005, 15:24

See - I knew that Labour were a bunch of crooks!

I am undecided between yellow and blue at the moment

Graham Jones · 05-04-2005, 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by vorlon24

See - I knew that Labour were a bunch of crooks!

I am undecided between yellow and blue at the moment

Its a goldfish bowl world when you can extrapalate the whole spectrum from one crooked incident. Yellow or Blue, your having a laugh... anyway

Ballot box votes are secret because your polling card [id address] is not linked to the slip of paper you put a cross on. The marked register is to stop fraud, ie make sure no one votes multiple times and is simply the summary of people who have handed over polling cards.

Postal votes are retained and with a lot of effort, the barcode on the vote can be identified to a particular house/person. Hyndburns votes came in by the thousand were quickly parted and votes put in piles and counted. Members of thepublic were and did witness this. In fact the BNP came in twice and were happy with the process!!!

BTW I voted against Postal Votes [b4 someone assumes wrongly] in Council for the record because of cheating and because it gives 'the cant be bothered/deliberatley uniformed' an easy protest vote or four! A 3rd reason was turnout. I think the turnout is part of the mandate those elected get. In other words to artificaially raise it gives politicians more cedibility than otherwise.

It is my clear view that considerable cheating took place in Hyndburn in 03 and 04, however the police have been unable to substantiate this allegation and we have to accept that the allegations remain unfounded! Whats laughable is the Labour Party get the blame - I just wish some people would look at the results because if we did, we must be the stupidiest constituency party in Britain!

Cheating has always gone on. I dont know what happened this time to the allegation that a closed private care home in Altham cast multiple postal votes in 04. Mind you it has long been an accusation that during Maggies run and her love affair with the massive giveaway of state benefits proping up unlicensed unregulated care homes in the 80's, she could always rely on a 100% postal vote turnout when you checked the marked register.

I dont think colour of skin stops people cheating. How many people gathered up the wifes vote and said here love put a cross on this [why whats that for hubby???], ta, never mind, I'll tell you when I get back from the post box...

ShortStuff · 05-04-2005, 22:04

As Willow says the point is not that they know but they deny knowing! If the vote is completely anonymous as it is supposed to be - it shouldn't even take "a lot of effort" to discover the voter.

yerself · 06-04-2005, 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrahamJones

Ballot box votes are secret because your polling card [id address] is not linked to the slip of paper you put a cross on. The marked register is to stop fraud, ie make sure no one votes multiple times and is simply the summary of people who have handed over polling cards.

Is the phrase "A load of old ballcocks" acceptable in Council Chambers ? If not I will not use it to describe the above quote.
Your voting slip is torn from a pad and both the slip and the counterfoil left in the pad have a serial no. Your electoral roll number is noted on the counterfoil of your voting slip thus allowing the authorities to ascertain exactly who voted for who. This is secret voting?

vorlon24 · 06-04-2005, 09:40

In my experiences, the voting slip is not torn from anything - it is a pile of photocopied bits of paper, evidently cut by someone who has had a few to drink.

I don't remember anything else being written on it, but then the last time I voted was 1997.

janet · 06-04-2005, 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by yerself

Is the phrase "A load of old ballcocks" acceptable in Council Chambers ? If not I will not use it to describe the above quote.
Your voting slip is torn from a pad and both the slip and the counterfoil left in the pad have a serial no. Your electoral roll number is noted on the counterfoil of your voting slip thus allowing the authorities to ascertain exactly who voted for who. This is secret voting?

My thoughts exactly,a couple of years ago when i went to vote i brought this up, but what i was told was, no one would know who i had voted for.I have not voted since, i object to big brother knowing who i vote for.