Where will this madness end? - Page 6

Wynonie Harris · 21-12-2011, 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

That's not what we're on about, Wyonie. I'm certainly not an ardent Christian and I won't be going to church but I do object to the traditions of those who are Christians being eroded, not by other religeons but by those who have appear to have none.

So, explain to me how they're being eroded by "those who appear to have none" (which would seem to include you!).

Margaret Pilkington · 21-12-2011, 21:08

Well Jedi, it was the same when I was at school probably a lot longer ago than when you were at school....and yes they were Christian assemblies......but you didn't have to attend them. I remember one of my classmates absented herself from them because as she explained to the head teacher...she didn't believe in all that religion stuff.
She chose to spend assembly time in our library.....it was her choice, which was respected. I do not recall any other pupils doing this.
Assemblies were for delivering school news, as well as giving a religious start to the day.
I am pretty sure I was told that religion was the one and only subject which had(by law) to be taught in schools. I don't know if this was decreed by Henry Tudor - he did have a big hand in the religion of this country.

These days it is different, schools have different assemblies and have them less frequently.

You are right when you say that people of many races now inhabit this country....this does not automatically make us multicultural....many of these cultures do not integrate fully into the communities where they live.....this is their choice.

I certainly do not want to celebrate Eid, Diwali or Hannukah........this is my choice...but I do not begrudge those who do wish to celebrate these religious festivals from doing so.

jedimaster · 21-12-2011, 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

?? If we were already Catholic they didn't impose it on us, did they?

Back on thread, if the different religeons all say 'Go ahead, celebrate Christmas how you like, we don't mind or care' where does the PC brigade get these silly ideas from? Is it a cunning plan to run down Christianity in this country( because they're atheists) but blame the other religeons for it happening?

and where did catholicism originate? I ask myself, oh yes...... THE ROMANS!

DaveinGermany · 21-12-2011, 21:19

For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine “legalized” Christianity with the Edict of Milan in A.D. 313. Later, in A.D. 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicea in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism.

A quotation from "got questions.org"

jedimaster · 21-12-2011, 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Well Jedi, it was the same when I was at school probably a lot longer ago than when you were at school....and yes they were Christian assemblies......but you didn't have to attend them. I remember one of my classmates absented herself from them because as she explained to the head teacher...she didn't believe in all that religion stuff.
She chose to spend assembly time in our library.....it was her choice, which was respected. I do not recall any other pupils doing this.
Assemblies were for delivering school news, as well as giving a religious start to the day.
I am pretty sure I was told that religion was the one and only subject which had(by law) to be taught in schools. I don't know if this was decreed by Henry Tudor - he did have a big hand in the religion of this country.

These days it is different, schools have different assemblies and have them less frequently.

You are right when you say that people of many races now inhabit this country....this does not automatically make us multicultural....many of these cultures do not integrate fully into the communities where they live.....this is their choice.

I certainly do not want to celebrate Eid, Diwali or Hannukah........this is my choice...but I do not begrudge those who do wish to celebrate these religious festivals from doing so.

I quite agree i do not begrudge anyone believing what they wish.

There was no choice in my school, you either stood through the very religious assembly or you were excluded if you had a parental request to do so. The girl in question still had to stand there she was just made to stand at the back of the hall.

this was only a single incident, I can also recall my daughter coming home from school having been taught about the nativity as if it was the truth and the ONLY truth and not in my eyes what SOME people belive. Christianity is always taught in schools as the foremost religion and everything else as THE OTHER RELIGIONS. religion should be taught objectively and with EQUAL emphasis or not at all! As i have said before not even the various christian sects can agree on what they believe so how can it be taught as the truth.

jedimaster · 21-12-2011, 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

but I do object to the traditions of those who are Christians being eroded, not by other religeons but by those who have appear to have none.

by traditions,I assume you mean marketing ploys to increase income for major retailers!

for example:
christmas trees (introduced by the scandanavians)
santa (a marketing tool for coca cola)
lights (again from chanuka)
turkey (not introduced until victorian times, a favourite of victoria and albert who became the main trendsetters for it)

I could go on but these ancient christian traditions seem very modern to me and also nothing to do with christianity

garinda · 21-12-2011, 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedimaster

errm no i'm not wrong, as I quite rightly said, christianity was forced on the people of this country by the roman catholic invaders

No, I'm afraid you are wrong, yet again.

Like you were, when you said the Celts were indigenous to Britain.

Any evidence, dates etc., when this invasion began, and forced the poor population to become Christians?

Not a very tolerant lot are they?

These Winter Festivalists.

garinda · 21-12-2011, 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedimaster

errm no i'm not wrong, as I quite rightly said, christianity was forced on the people of this country by the roman catholic invaders we were not a christian country until this happened and jesus birth has got naff all to do with the december festival. however i am sure i also pointed out that all faiths and beliefs should be respected and all people in this country should be free to celebrate what they want, how they want free from the prejudice of anyone who believes differently, yet you say I am the one that is in the wrong after telling me where to stick my own beliefs. a very prejudiced view imho.

let us just say (without too much graphic detail) that I have my beliefs and you are welcome to yours. The difference is I would be willing to stand up for you to have those beliefs rather than tell you where to stick them!

If you don't celebrate Christmas, why post on here, mentioning Christmas trees, Christmas decorations, and this being your child's first Christmas?

I'm afraid we've already cast this year's Accy Web nativity.

All except for the ass.

How you fixed?

susie123 · 21-12-2011, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedimaster

I can also recall my daughter coming home from school having been taught about the nativity as if it was the truth and the ONLY truth and not in my eyes what SOME people belive. Christianity is always taught in schools as the foremost religion and everything else as THE OTHER RELIGIONS. religion should be taught objectively and with EQUAL emphasis or not at all! As i have said before not even the various christian sects can agree on what they believe so how can it be taught as the truth.

Quite agree, makes it easier for me to be an atheist.

By the way your Jehovah's Witness couldn't take part in the festivities at christmas - they eschew all festivities including Christmas.

garinda · 21-12-2011, 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedimaster

nowt wrong with me mate, my simple point was that i can see both sides of the story, no christmas shouldn't be banned in case of offence but on the other hand christianity shouldn't be forced on people who have other beliefs. quite simple really

Pray tell, who the friggin' Holly Willoughby is being 'forced' to celebrate Christmas against their will, in this country?

I honestly didn't think there were any actual people, who believed all this p.c. crap.

Guess I do now.

garinda · 21-12-2011, 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedimaster

by traditions,I assume you mean marketing ploys to increase income for major retailers!

for example:
christmas trees (introduced by the scandanavians)
santa (a marketing tool for coca cola)
lights (again from chanuka)
turkey (not introduced until victorian times, a favourite of victoria and albert who became the main trendsetters for it)

I could go on but these ancient christian traditions seem very modern to me and also nothing to do with christianity

It was actually the German Prince Albert, who popularised the Christmas tree.

It became fashionable after the Royal family were pictured with one, in the Illustrated London News.

Everyone's fully aware of how Christmas traditions came about.

What we'd all really like to know is who is being forced to celebrate Christmas against their will?

Margaret Pilkington · 21-12-2011, 22:38

I think that schools would find it hard to teach all religions objectively...though they could(and do) teach about other faiths.
I was taught about the nativity when I was growing up too, but I cannot say in all honesty that I believed all of it...but then isn't that what faith is about.......knowing in a common sense way that something cannot be true, but having a belief anyway.

All of our laws are based on Christian tenets(whichever bit of christianinty you follow - because roman catholicism is still based around Christ)...all educational establishments started in monasteries....so the structure of society was built around religion.
Whether you choose to follow it or not.
As for many of the Christmas traditions being marketing ploys.......Santa was always dressed in green prior to Coca Cola hijacking the image for advertising purposes, but he did stillexist in the minds of the people. Christmas trees were popularised by Prince Albert(no commercialism there - he just wanted to follow the tradition of his homeland) and bringing into the home green boughs, holly, spruce etc were remnants of the pagan festival of Saturnalia......the lights.....well you could say they have been borrowed from other religions, but in the dark of midwinter it would have been normal to have candles lighting up the home...and I am of an age when they used to put wax candles on christmas trees to illuminate them......there were no fairy lights.

ToffeeGuy · 21-12-2011, 22:40

And Paganism wasn't forced on people? Haven't you seen the 1973 documentary film 'The Wicker Man'?

walkinman221 · 21-12-2011, 22:40

Reading through this thread makes me think jedi has got the wrong end of the stick it was about the predominant religion in a country being forced to take a back seat to avoid offending a more minority religion.His facts about Christianity seem to be a little off kilter, i myself was a pupil at a church school St Christophers and do not practise any religion. But if people want to follow their god thats up to them, but to be in what is traditionally (like it or not jedi) a christian country and expect the populous of that country to curb their religious beliefs for fear of offence is wrong. And by the way Christmas trees have their origins in latvia, Lithuania , and Germany, in the 13th and 14th centuries and became more popular here after Queen Victoria married Prince Albert.

Sorry just spotted rindy has cleared up about the christmas tree.

garinda · 21-12-2011, 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedimaster

this was only a single incident, I can also recall my daughter coming home from school having been taught about the nativity as if it was the truth and the ONLY truth and not in my eyes what SOME people belive. Christianity is always taught in schools as the foremost religion and everything else as THE OTHER RELIGIONS.

You could have always sent her to a Jewish, Muslim, or even a non-denominational school.

Didn't you find out what she'd be taught, before packing the poor mite off to it?