Whitebirk Retail Park

[g jones]

Guinness wrote

d) A fortune is spent on demographics and surveys...you won't find our Graham canvassing in safe areas, except for photo ops, he knows he has these votes, demographics and surveys..all paid for by the party...what chance would a little known airline pilot have against the party machine?

REPLY

I lived the last 30 years in a deprived ward. I worked at Daltons for the last 10 up to GE. I worked in a care home, also as a bin man and have had several spells out of work and had to rent my own home because we couldn't afford it.

It is disingenuous to say voters are easily taken in by a 'party machine'.

We all get frustrated about issues but the Councils has dozens of public meetings where you get to find out a lot more, where you get to air your views and hear the pitfalls and complications of an issue.

Finally consensus. I receive letters occasionally that talk about 'we the people' and 'not listening'. A recent reply I gave listed my lifelong friends here in Accrington. A van driver, a postman, unemployed, trading standards officer, self employed, NHS accountant, GCHQ, recent unemployed. Ordinary Accrington people who have always voted Labour, think about issues seriously and certainly have a different view to the letters I receive stating 'we the people'.

As Ken says there is not the public consensus that is sometimes made out.

[Guinness]

I've been to a few of these public meetings, where searching questions are dodged, ideas are brushed off and the outcome is steered to the one preordained. It's like being on an opposition bench during a major debate.

It's disingenuous to ask anyone to believe that surveys, polls and demographics, paid for by the party machine, are not used in selecting where to electioneer.

Steve Kean once told the national press that he had a mandate from a hundred well wishing letters a day proving that the majority were behind him. I could argue that everyone that I have talked to agrees that Whitebirk would be a good thing...I won't because I can't evidence it, neither could Kean and neither can you evidence that your 8 card carrying mates are a true representation of what 'we the people' want.

The long term labour vision, by definition, is just that...a dream.

You are not 'listening' to the public who are voting with their feet and shopping elsewhere. People do not go shopping to look at 'period features', they want 'more' not 'less shops', stating that you will place a 'greater focus' on the market is just a soundbite, because you don't actually outline how you are going to deliver on this. As for more leisure retail, sorry mate they are quite happy on leisure retail parks in Blackburn and Burnley, where you can buy some stuff get it carried to your car and continue shopping next door,such a pity Hyndburn is refusing to allow one to be built here.

[g jones]

Originally Posted by Guinness

I've been to a few of these public meetings, where searching questions are dodged, ideas are brushed off and the outcome is steered to the one preordained. It's like being on an opposition bench during a major debate.

It's disingenuous to ask anyone to believe that surveys, polls and demographics, paid for by the party machine, are not used in selecting where to electioneer.

Steve Kean once told the national press that he had a mandate from a hundred well wishing letters a day proving that the majority were behind him. I could argue that everyone that I have talked to agrees that Whitebirk would be a good thing...I won't because I can't evidence it, neither could Kean and neither can you evidence that your 8 card carrying mates are a true representation of what 'we the people' want.

The long term labour vision, by definition, is just that...a dream.

You are not 'listening' to the public who are voting with their feet and shopping elsewhere. People do not go shopping to look at 'period features', they want 'more' not 'less shops', stating that you will place a 'greater focus' on the market is just a soundbite, because you don't actually outline how you are going to deliver on this. As for more leisure retail, sorry mate they are quite happy on leisure retail parks in Blackburn and Burnley, where you can buy some stuff get it carried to your car and continue shopping next door,such a pity Hyndburn is refusing to allow one to be built here.

People have been shopping elsewhere for years. When the Trafford Centre opened Accrington lost 11% of it's trade. Town centres everywhere are suffering. We have a national high street crises.

You are not wright either on 'party machine'. We do not target or identify. We knock every area equally and put many hours in to doing so. That's how we know what the majority think.

[Gordon Booth]

Originally Posted by g jones

We knock every area equally and put many hours in to doing so.

Unfortunate choice of words, Graham!

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by g jones

People have been shopping elsewhere for years. When the Trafford Centre opened Accrington lost 11% of it's trade. Town centres everywhere are suffering. We have a national high street crises.

You are not wright either on 'party machine'. We do not target or identify. We knock every area equally and put many hours in to doing so. That's how we know what the majority think.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes...high streets across the country are dying...and the reason is simplicity itself....because the shopping habits of 'we the people' have changed.

The days of struggling through town with a handful of bags in both hands, wet through, frozen to the marrow and struggling to find a seat on a council run bus are as consigned to history as calling in at the local fletcher to buy arrows for mandatory Sunday afternoon practice.

HBC is like King Canute ordering the waves of modern retail and shopping practice to go back to the mid 20th century..ain't gonna happen.

[Margaret Pilkington]

There are still people who do shop locally because they have no option......those are the elderly and the infirm.
The elderly often have no access to computers or no interest in them...they cannot pay bills or shop online(and forgive me MargaretR - you are the exception which tests the rule).
The infirm cannot get to places like the Trafford Centre - and probably wouldn't shop there if they could get there.
How do we service the needs of these people?
Why, we move the bus station further away from the market.......a market that doesn't need any help in dying.
The town centre needs pulling together not blowing apart.

[Ken Moss]

I, like most people nowadays, do shop online for certain items because it is usually quite hassle free and cheap. You still can't get away from the nice feeling if a shopping trip out and a handful of bags of new stuff and I do that regularly in Accrington.

Despite everything that is being done to prevent a swift demise for Accrington there is derision.

I want clear answers from this forum as to what members would do instead because from what I can see people are happy to slag off HBC for letting it die yet happy to slag off HBC for trying to prop it up. Given the state of shopping centres around the country I am happy with what we are trying to do but I would like to hear what others would do.

Answers please.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Ken, I have made suggestions.
Move the current outside stall holders into the empty talls in the market hall(this would make the market hall feel more occupied.....get rid of some of the empty spaces, they just make it feel like a mausoleum).....demolish the outside market stalls and use this area for the bus station....it won't happen of course, the site at the back of Union street has already been rubber stamped.
A bus station that is central would surely enhance the use of the shops on Broadway and of course the market hall....it would make shopping easier for those who rely on public transport(the elderly,the infirm, those on limited budgets).
Who in their right mind wants to shop on the market/market hall and then lug bags of shopping back down Union street to catch the bus home?

People will use this new bus station to go out of town to places where the shopping experience is more customer centred - where the transport system is nearer to the shops.

This opinion has been aired on here for a long time.......it is just that no-one appears to have taken much notice of what the customer wants or needs.

The hideous 60's building on Broadway could have been demolished and the bus station built there - right in the midst of the shopping centre.
Wouldn't that have made more sense.....passengers would be dropped right where the shops are.
This bus station moves the centre of Accrington away from the centre(I know that sounds Irish, but I'm sure you get my drift) where the shops are.
Union Street to the Market may only be a short walk for you, but if you have heart trouble, breathing trouble or are just getting on in years, it is a marathon.

If you look back at my posts I don't slag off HBC for no reason...and as a rule, I state the reasons for my opinions.
I hate Blackburn as a place to shop, but I think they have got it spot on in siting the bus station in the centre,(away from the railway station) close to the market and with easy access to the shops

[Graham Hartley]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

I, like most people nowadays, do shop online for certain items because it is usually quite hassle free and cheap. You still can't get away from the nice feeling if a shopping trip out and a handful of bags of new stuff and I do that regularly in Accrington.

Despite everything that is being done to prevent a swift demise for Accrington there is derision.

I want clear answers from this forum as to what members would do instead because from what I can see people are happy to slag off HBC for letting it die yet happy to slag off HBC for trying to prop it up. Given the state of shopping centres around the country I am happy with what we are trying to do but I would like to hear what others would do.

Answers please.

Ken describes the dilemma of politics - that any action will be thought wrong, often even by one's allies. I expect builders, teachers, doctors, lawyers, musicians and the rest to have particular, useful skill in their work and that politicians will be on the list. Ken appears to have no such way to avoid or resolve this dilemma save that of asking for others' comment. I find this honest but distressing.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by g jones

....A majority Labour Council/Party has a long term vision. Consolidation of shops, ie less. More leisure retail. Period features returned. More town centre living. Better transport links. Greater focus on the market.......

Has moving the bus station got anything to do with consolidating shops away from Abbey street? The Whalley Road end needs knocking down or are there plans for turning it into a town centre living area.

Is there a description what a Labour run Councils plan is for the town centre as a whole that would help understand why the bus station move is a good one?

[Margaret Pilkington]

You don't get greater focus on the market by moving transport away from it....moving the bus station is the death knell foran already dying market.
How many residential properties do you think the Market Hall will accommodate Graham?
Because that is what you will end up doing.

[Ken Moss]

I have to say that I can't get my head around all this talk of a dying indoor market filled with empty stalls and gaping chasmic spaces.

Where exactly? I've been in over Christmas several times and there seemed to be more on than ever.

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by Graham Hartley

Ken describes the dilemma of politics - that any action will be thought wrong, often even by one's allies. I expect builders, teachers, doctors, lawyers, musicians and the rest to have particular, useful skill in their work and that politicians will be on the list. Ken appears to have no such way to avoid or resolve this dilemma save that of asking for others' comment. I find this honest but distressing.

Not exactly, Graham. What I have found in the past four years is that straight answers can be given in public with written evidence to back it up and still people will cling to a myth. The only trouble with myths and rumours is that if they're peddled often enough then they become the accepted truth.

The online community (not just Accyweb) is keen as mustard to emphasise what a hole Accrington is when it actually has plenty going for it. I've always thought this, even under the Conservative administration, it's just that shopping habits are changing and so are high streets on a national level.

Myself and my partner have been visiting a few towns over the past six months and to be quite honest, with the exception of Bury, nowhere has really struck me as being massively different from Accy. All this talk of pound stores and charity shops applies just as much to Manchester, Southport, Preston, Chester and Liverpool as it does to us.

I take the points raised about moving the bus station but to be honest it makes better sense to have a proper actual building and will uncover quite a few shops on Peel Street which are currently hidden by shelters. Of all the streets in Accy that is probably the one which I personally have greatest trouble naming many shops on.

It's also interesting to read views that although an out of town shopping centre with direct competition won't do any harm to Accrington because there's nothing there anyway, but moving the bus station two hundred yards will kill it stone dead.

Figure that one out.

[Margaret Pilkington]

The flower stall has gone and there are empty stalls(at least three) on the right hand side of the market hall from the Bottom entrance.....the bit that is supposed to house the museum is closed every time I go in there......and there are vast empty spaces.
It might have been slightly busier over Christmas, but then you would hope for that....seeing as it is a time when people are out and about buying gifts and food.
Ken, if you don't think the market and the market hall are taking their last gasps, you are deluded.
I visit the town every weekday, and it isn't worth a candle......moving the bus station will snuff out the dim light that the town centre is right now.
I am not talking the town down, I am just giving you a realistic view of how it is.....and I am not the only one that is saying this.
Denial isn't just a river in Egypt !

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

The flower stall has gone and there are empty stalls(at least three) on the right hand side of the market hall from the Bottom entrance.....the bit that is supposed to house the museum is closed every time I go in there......and there are vast empty spaces.
It might have been slightly busier over Christmas, but then you would hope for that....seeing as it is a time when people are out and about buying gifts and food.
Ken, if you don't think the market and the market hall are taking their last gasps, you are deluded.
I visit the town every weekday, and it isn't worth a candle......moving the bus station will snuff out the dim light that the town centre is right now.
I am not talking the town down, I am just giving you a realistic view of how it is.....and I am not the only one that is saying this.
Denial isn't just a river in Egypt !

Again, I do take your points Marg and my replies haven't been aimed at you but, if I may be so personal, if the town isn't up to much why do you bother visiting every day?

I do blame the decline of town centres largely on supermarkets because they have become a one stop shop for pretty much everything you need. Very convenient but not good for the small retailer and not that brilliant for the consumer either I've found.

Due to working ridiculous hours for years on end, I have found that my new weekly shopping trips that I have been ordered to go on with my partner are actually a pretty therapeutic remedy. Simply browsing the shops or picking up bits and pieces off the market is much more pleasant than diving in and out of Asda for everything. A coffee or breakfast somewhere is a nice treat too and I have been amazed at how cheap stuff is (green grocery, cheese and cakes, for example). I have needed several repairs over the past 12 months and she has also told me of places which have sorted out everything I have needed.

I would never have known about half the stuff in Accy if it weren't for word of mouth simply because I don't have time to wander round and find out for myself. I would urge everyone who has found something good to spread the word and encourage more people to use our town centre, encourage businesses, encourage investment from companies that we want in addition to what we have.

I'm not burying my head in the sand, I'm just trying to adopt a more positive approach.