Whitebirk Retail Park

[shillelagh]

anyone ever considered whitebirk retail park is in the wrong place......

[cashman]

Originally Posted by shillelagh

anyone ever considered whitebirk retail park is in the wrong place......

Correct it should be in Timbucktoo.

[accyman]

Originally Posted by cashman

Correct it should be in Timbucktoo.

accy wouldnt have hurt it may as well be in blackburn for the good it does Hyndburn

i bet blackburn council or whoever it was called back them were peeing themselves at hyndburns stupidity of practiacally building blackburn a retail park that took away most of the big names from accrington like currys,dixons,gas showroom and probably more i dont remember right now and turned the qarndale into the mess it is now

[Guinness]

Whitebirk is on the border, most of the proposed park would be in Hyndburn and it's got good all round access...Blackburn are fighting tooth and nail against it because it would impact on their retail parks around Bolton Road and The Mall...Hyndburn has ZERO shops to begin with...just what would Blackburn be laughing at?

Blackburn has just built a very expensive bridge to nowhere, leads to an area they are demolishing...the cynic in me thinks they have that land earmarked for another out of town retail park..time will tell I guess.

The demise of the Gas showroom was more down to privatisation than it was to any retail park. With the increase in consumer electrics/electronics a double fronted Curry's shop in the centre of town just didn't have the capacity, kinda like the traditional corner shop just can't stock the variety of a supermarket.

You cannot seriously believe that the Arndale was affected by the wasteland of Whitebirk and not by Blackburn and Burnley with their mini retail parks, central shopping areas and covered markets.

And with that I give up..never gonna convince the luddites that there is no way back for Accrington

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Guinness

And with that I give up..never gonna convince the luddites that there is no way back for Accrington

You don't need to convince me I already agree.

[Neil]

Has anyone wondered how the Council staff are going to see out of their office windows when this Pals banner is put up as mentioned in another thread?

I am guessing all those offices are now empty and maybe the time is right to demolish that hideous blue building making a more central and visible space for the market on Broadway

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Neil

Has anyone wondered how the Council staff are going to see out of their office windows when this Pals banner is put up as mentioned in another thread?

I am guessing all those offices are now empty and maybe the time is right to demolish that hideous blue building making a more central and visible space for the market on Broadway

Would make an ideal place for a new bus station.

[maxthecollie]

Originally Posted by Retlaw

Would make an ideal place for a new bus station.

That's too sensible for our council

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by Guinness

b) Even Ken Moss admitted on this forum that he had zero chance of being elected without aligning himself with a political party, and he approached the tories first, but was ignored ...now he's a dyed in the wool labour guy and boy has he started to toe the party line since his election despite any protestations he's made (or about to make up)

No I did not, I simply wrote to all three Rishton Councillors to ask what they actually did for us and only Labour responded. I have never claimed to be a dyed in the wool red but at a local level they whizz all over the blues from the top of the viaduct.

I'm vaguely amused by the notion of the elected representatives not doing their best for the people because their views differ from the most vocal opponents. Presumably a good representative is only one who does exactly what the voters say? Having the benefit of seeing things from both sides of the fence, I'm glad I don't live in that world.

In Rishton alone that would mean spending our annual budget approximately 18 times over in less than a month whilst drastically lowering wasteful spending, putting in more play parks whilst simultaneously stopping any new play parks for fear of noise pollution and antisocial behaviour, preventing traffic parking on the streets whilst increasing the number of parking spaces, doing more to support local businesses whilst encouraging larger corporations to open stores in the village, promoting Rishon firms and helping people to get jobs but restraining local companies who get so successful that their traffic supposedly causes huge disruptions, getting better mobile telephony signals and internet connection whilst absolutely forbidding new masts to be erected, improving conditions on park footpaths which are damp in winter but restraining spending on that park because it gets all the money, increasing the number of litter bins and dog waste collections whilst cutting back on excessive numbers of staff, spending more on Christmas decorations but cut back on the ridiculous amount of trivial activity I support each Christmas and introduce a combined recycling wheelie bin costing well over a million quid to implement but absolutely under no circumstances increase Council tax.

Above all, I should stop claiming expenses and get my trotters out of the trough.

Despite this easy life I find that I still need to work six days a week and the queue of people waiting to replace me as Councillor is shorter than a midge's tackle.

By all means stand for election, wage a five month campaign out of your own pocket, replace me and do all the research and solve all the problems which have come my way over the past four years.

Being an active Councillor is not an easy job, the pay is lousy for the hours and the hassle is phenomenal. Half the battle is being able to see the bigger picture and the other half is being able to recognise that you will never ever please everyone.

We live in times of massive compromise and therefore massive disappointment but every decision is thought through and then thought through again, picked apart, revised, reviewed, costed over and over and then finally a policy is implemented which has more positives than negatives.

It is never ever going to please everyone but we never take decisions lightly.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Ken, you can only speak for yourself.
You do not know, and cannot know the thought processes that are going on in someone's head.(and I say this with the greatest respect for your work).
As in everything political, there are bound to be those who do what is best to fulfil,their own hidden agenda....rather than what is good for the community they represent.
And like every other walk of life, there are those who will try to move mountains, and there are those who are dragged along in their slipstream!

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

No I did not, I simply wrote to all three Rishton Councillors to ask what they actually did for us and only Labour responded. I have never claimed to be a dyed in the wool red but at a local level they whizz all over the blues from the top of the viaduct.

I'm vaguely amused by the notion of the elected representatives not doing their best for the people because their views differ from the most vocal opponents. Presumably a good representative is only one who does exactly what the voters say? Having the benefit of seeing things from both sides of the fence, I'm glad I don't live in that world.

In Rishton alone that would mean spending our annual budget approximately 18 times over in less than a month whilst drastically lowering wasteful spending, putting in more play parks whilst simultaneously stopping any new play parks for fear of noise pollution and antisocial behaviour, preventing traffic parking on the streets whilst increasing the number of parking spaces, doing more to support local businesses whilst encouraging larger corporations to open stores in the village, promoting Rishon firms and helping people to get jobs but restraining local companies who get so successful that their traffic supposedly causes huge disruptions, getting better mobile telephony signals and internet connection whilst absolutely forbidding new masts to be erected, improving conditions on park footpaths which are damp in winter but restraining spending on that park because it gets all the money, increasing the number of litter bins and dog waste collections whilst cutting back on excessive numbers of staff, spending more on Christmas decorations but cut back on the ridiculous amount of trivial activity I support each Christmas and introduce a combined recycling wheelie bin costing well over a million quid to implement but absolutely under no circumstances increase Council tax.

Above all, I should stop claiming expenses and get my trotters out of the trough.

Despite this easy life I find that I still need to work six days a week and the queue of people waiting to replace me as Councillor is shorter than a midge's tackle.

By all means stand for election, wage a five month campaign out of your own pocket, replace me and do all the research and solve all the problems which have come my way over the past four years.

Being an active Councillor is not an easy job, the pay is lousy for the hours and the hassle is phenomenal. Half the battle is being able to see the bigger picture and the other half is being able to recognise that you will never ever please everyone.

We live in times of massive compromise and therefore massive disappointment but every decision is thought through and then thought through again, picked apart, revised, reviewed, costed over and over and then finally a policy is implemented which has more positives than negatives.

It is never ever going to please everyone but we never take decisions lightly.

Congratulations on getting all that in without referring to Whitebirk at all

Taking you points in order...

1) I stand corrected, but you could have become a tory councillor if they and not labour had responded..point I was making still stands, you need either money to burn or a party to be elected

2) A good representative is one who does exactly what he is elected to do..represent the majority, vocal or otherwise. Just because you think you are the only one who is aware of both sides of an issue does not make it so.

3) In a nutshell...Noise pollution, ASB, traffic...all police matters. If you want to support local business stop fixing things that ain't broke. Larger companies will not come here regardless of whether Whitebirk is constructed or not. Central government has stopped you raising the council tax etc..etc..etc..

4) Don't think anyone has EVER accused you of troughing expenses.

5) Nobody said it was easy, but again do not assume that you are the only one with the intelligence to research the pros and cons of an argument.

6) Kindly explain why Whitebirk has more negatives than positives (after all that is the crux of this discussion), you could start with... how it will impact on the town centre redevelopment? what large stores have promised to take up residence in the Arndale if Whitebirk does not go ahead?, how many local jobs will be lost/gained?, what will the cost of this development be to the local taxpayers?

Fair play to you for standing your corner, it's more than the other lurking wet blankets ever do.

[Ken Moss]

Taking your points in order...

1) I stand corrected, but you could have become a tory councillor if they and not labour had responded..point I was making still stands, you need either money to burn or a party to be elected

In all honesty, I don't think I would have ever gone Tory. I'm from a Labour background and although I have been able to appreciate what the national Tories have been trying to do over the years I don't care for the way they have gone about it. The local Tory leader would not have endeared himself to me even back then and I actually got more engagement out of the then Independent leader, the late Cllr Dave Mason. The major drag factor would have been Britcliffe, I simply could not work with someone who rubbed me that far up the wrong way.

2) A good representative is one who does exactly what he is elected to do..represent the majority, vocal or otherwise. Just because you think you are the only one who is aware of both sides of an issue does not make it so.

Yes, but the majority are NEVER the most vocal. It is recognising that fact and still doing what needs to be done for the long term best whilst taking an incredible amount of public flak that is the hard part.

3) In a nutshell...Noise pollution, ASB, traffic...all police matters. If you want to support local business stop fixing things that ain't broke. Larger companies will not come here regardless of whether Whitebirk is constructed or not. Central government has stopped you raising the council tax etc..etc..etc..

Exactly, but I still have to deal with it. That argument also flies in the opposite direction, if there was no demand for larger companies why would they come to Whitebirk? I have no doubt that they would in time but that doesn't get around the central problem (I'll answer that with your last point).

4) Don't think anyone has EVER accused you of troughing expenses.

Oh believe me, they have. I can show them all the published figures but I somehow am still fiddling things and abusing my power. Two residents in particular are convinced that being elected onto the committees of the Free Gardeners Club and the People's Centre is evidence of me using my influence to get ahead. Why let the truth get in the way of a good imagination?

5) Nobody said it was easy, but again do not assume that you are the only one with the intelligence to research the pros and cons of an argument.

I'd never say that and I apologise if that's how it came across but there is far more to most problems than simply pleasing the public. The vast majority of problems/developments are determined by money but a big one-off dollop of cash for HBC in S106 monies for approving a scheme is useless if it has long-term damaging effects on the rest of the local economy.

6) Kindly explain why Whitebirk has more negatives than positives (after all that is the crux of this discussion), you could start with... how it will impact on the town centre redevelopment? what large stores have promised to take up residence in the Arndale if Whitebirk does not go ahead?, how many local jobs will be lost/gained?, what will the cost of this development be to the local taxpayers?

I don't know that anyone has refused to go into the Arndale in connection with Whitebirk but it would certainly damage traders who are already in Accrington. If we are struggling to lure big names into Accrington without any competition on the doorstep just imagine what will happen when there is.

I have never held with this 'number of local jobs to be created' because it always sounds better than it is in actuality. Zero hours contracts, part time shifts, hardly any full time jobs at all is the likely reality but dressing it up as 1000 new jobs for local people sounds pretty lovely doesn't it?

The cost to the local taxpayer will be in terms of lost tax revenue. You open up new units in direct competition with dozens of smaller businesses already doing the same thing and the larger business will usually win. The smaller businesses close, all that revenue disappears and you end up with empty shops in return for business tax from just one unit. It speaks volumes that even Blackburn Council don't want it when they already have retail parks of their own. I'm no fan of BwDBC but the simple fact remains that there is only so much money to go around and so you end up damaging everyone by opening up direct competition.

Fair play to you for standing your corner, it's more than the other lurking wet blankets ever do.

Thank you. I've never been afraid to speak my mind which surprises some people but at least you know what you're voting for with me.

[accyman]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

Presumably a good representative is only one who does exactly what the voters say?.

well it wouldnt hurt if an elected representitive did what he or she said he or she would do especially when its an issue that is very important to a lot of people

also it is the job of an elected representitive to do as the voters say so yes a good representitive does what the voters say

mind you tony blair broke every election prommise within a year or there abouts and this shower of crap we have now have pulled more u-turns than a boy racer on an icy carpark including their no u-turn policey

no wonder folk think most of em are crooked liars they cant keep their word and fiddle expenses

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by g jones

I don't think there has ever been a consensus in a decade of various meetings I have sat in with the public, councillors, retailers, interested parties. Everyone sees the common sense of their own ideas and there's been no shortage of 'if only'...

The problem is its always looked at on party political lines, not what's best for the town, and your the worst culprit, if its Tory its rubbish, according to the gospel of St. Graham

[g jones]

I'll always do my best for the area and will continue to do so with incredible passion. There's nothing party political about wanting progress.

There is incredibly strong leadership at the Council, and a clear sense of direction by the Labour majority.

There have been and still are wildly differing views on the town centre. The latest CATCH, Tony Dobsons 13 point plan, Labours long term view since taking over and many others. There clearly isn't a consensus and I have never known a period where everyone has agreed.

What I want to see is one clear plan and sticking to it. In the past we have had several plans back to back, or no clear plan, populism, indulgence, changing plans, or plans that won't be relevant tomorrow and a division of opinion that has quite frankly stalled progress. The bus station being the perfect example.

A majority Labour Council/Party has a long term vision. Consolidation of shops, ie less. More leisure retail. Period features returned. More town centre living. Better transport links. Greater focus on the market.

Good ideas are welcome but as Ken says they often don't pass the acid test or aren't really game changers and when kicked around in public meetings end up being partially of wholly rejected in a democratic and intelligent way. Nothing to do with Party politics. Town Centre meetings are open public meetings and your welcome to put your ideas forward to others.

If my view had prevailed BTW the pavilions would not have been built and the bus station would have been built on the old Peel Steet footprint. However the majority back then, wanted Crawshaw Street and turned up at meetings to make a strong case. I was the minority then. One of the difficulties of the job is public opinion csn change over time. A classic example of that is the old clock in the Arndale, derided at first but cherished years later.