who is this Daniel Hannan guy

[steeljack]

Originally Posted by claytonender

Whilst I understand what you are saying I do not have to agree with it.

I take it that the area that you live in is relatively affluent and the schools can be fully funded from your property taxes. But what happens in areas where there is insufficient income form the property taxes to fund education to the same level as in your town? Do the children in those areas receive a lower standard of education? If they do , are you advocating this as being an acceptable state of affair?

To try to answer a couple of your questions , I live near the border of two School districts in California , Hayward and Castro Valley and believe me when I say there is a world of difference between the two districts . State law mandates that each child in California has a mimimum amount of money spent per child on education ,and is also required to meet the minimum criteria for educational standards (State testing) but it is up to each individual school district to decide how the money is spent, each district is governed by a locally elected school board (usually first step for budding politicians) who are responsible for distributing the budget , including the hiring and firing of teachers and providing facilities .
Open to the public School board meetings are held every month . The area where I live (Castro Valley) is a more fiscally conservative district (no Taj Mahal like office complexs for admin staff) and meetings are well attended and questions are asked ..test results put our schools in the top ten State percentile. Neighbouring Hayward spends the minimum required State amount per student but is in the bottom ten percent .
I mentioned earlier that the State sets a minimum amount of money per child , but this can be 'upped' in local taxes in each school board catchment area by a vote at election time , and in my district we decided that childrens education comes first, so in effect our children get more spent on them than kids in neighbouring districts ,one way is paying our teachers higher salaries ,we get a better grade of teacher, is that fair ? .....I think so , local democracy in action .
Now and again a Christian taliban looney sneaks in and is elected to the school board , someone for example who wants creationism taught along-side Darwinism in Science class, but this rare and in most cases (in California at least) is voted down .

Individual schools also raise extra funds for equipment from PTAs , (local democracy again for individual schools) who take an active interest in their childs education instead of just sitting back and saying "thats what we pay them for "

[claytonender]

Thanks for your reply steeljack - it helps to explain more about how your public schools are funded.

Many schools in the UK have PTA's who raise money for extra funds etc.

[steeljack]

Originally Posted by garinda

Things have changed.

Nowadays you need to be educated to degree level to teach, from nursery classes to sixth form colleges.

Thirty years ago we had the situation of having not only teachers who hadn't been to university, but headteachers too.

Sorry to disagree , but some of the teachers from 30 odd years ago (who only attended teacher training college) were a damn sight better than than some/many of the teachers of today , prime example literacy rates and the use of proper English by their end product. , maybe some will disagree , but it's my humble opinion "Degrees" have been dumbed down for political reasons (the 'no one is a loser, everyone is worth a prize' mentality), some reports go so far as to compare a present day "Degree" from one of the new universities as being on a par to a 60s A Level .
Said it before and will say it again , Places that 5 /10/15 years ago who used to issue diplomas in cake decoration or tyre changing are not universities , but technical colleges offering adult education under a different name .

[garinda]

Originally Posted by steeljack

Sorry to disagree , but some of the teachers from 30 odd years ago (who only attended teacher training college) were a damn sight better than than some/many of the teachers of today , prime example literacy rates and the use of proper English by their end product. , maybe some will disagree , but it's my humble opinion "Degrees" have been dumbed down for political reasons (the 'no one is a loser, everyone is worth a prize' mentality), some reports go so far as to compare a present day "Degree" from one of the new universities as being on a par to a 60s A Level .
Said it before and will say it again , Places that 5 /10/15 years ago who used to issue diplomas in cake decoration or tyre changing are not universities , but technical colleges offering adult education under a different name .

Sadly, because it is quite sad, I woke up up thinking about this very post.

If you notice I made no mention about the quality of teaching in my original post.

From my own point of view I had some wonderful teachers at primary school, all of whom had been to teacher training college, with not a degree between them.

I also have some experience of attending a secondary school a little over thirty years ago, which had a head teacher and most of the staff without degrees.

At the first parent's evening my dad was so appalled at the quailty of teaching that the very next day I was in a private school, the same fee paying school my dad had attended.

My parents were in the fortunate position to be able to make that choice, even if it went against their principles, as a good education should be a right for all children, irrespective of the background of the parents.

I saw first hand the difference in the quality of teaching. The vast majority of teachers at my new school had been to Oxbridge colleges, and were truly amazing teachers, certainly much better than I'd had at my state school, some of whom should have been in secure mental hospitals.

Like me, hopefully we all had the pleasure of being taught by some wonderful teachers, who hadn't been to university. My original post only pointed out that this is no longer the case.

Those teachers might have been even better if they'd been graduates.

Who knows?

[garinda]

Originally Posted by steeljack

some reports go so far as to compare a present day "Degree" from one of the new universities as being on a par to a 60s A Level .

Earlier this year on this very forum, I compared a modern degree to an old O-level....jokingly.

[bullseyebarb]

Originally Posted by garinda

What about wars and defence Bullseyebarb?

Are you against a centralised state run national defence policy, or would that be better off left to free market economics, at a localised level?

Let's hope the people in the neighbouring bunker aren't able to afford bigger weaponry than you.

One of the few things granted to the federal government by the U.S. Constitution is providing for the common defense of the nation. This is an appropriate role for government.

[claytonender]

Originally Posted by bullseyebarb

One of the few things granted to the federal government by the U.S. Constitution is providing for the common defense of the nation. This is an appropriate role for government.

Whilst I am aware of the roles granted to the federal government of the US by the constitution, we have been discussing the Health Service and the Education system of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
As far as I am aware the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a sovereign country (unless we have become the 51st state of the Union whilst I was asleep last night and the news has not been disseminated to the citizens of the UK). I fail to comprehend what bearing the constitution of another country has on the UK. I am not seeking to criticize the US constitution, merely pointing out that it has no bearing whatsoever here in the UK.

[bullseyebarb]

Originally Posted by Mancie

I reckon we know that already..but what is your alternative..fund the schools who gain the bset results and leave the rest to go futher into ruin?

Yes. We should not be funding schools which consistently deliver bad outcomes. No parent should be forced to send their child to such an institution. That is why I favor a no strings attached voucher system. Parents should receive education dollars directly and then choose which school is worthy of getting them. Some U.S. cities have voucher programs....but only in limited quantities and for those with lower incomes. Inner city parents in particular are desperate to get their kids out of public schools. After President Obama came into office, I was extremely disappointed, (although not terribly surprised), to see that the DC voucher program was canceled. This program had allowed many students to attend local private schools, including Sidwell-Friends, where Washington's movers and shakers send their children - including Obama. An outcry ensued, causing a reversal of policy......but only for those already enrolled in a private school. No new vouchers will be issued. So, private schools for Washington elites but not for the children of working class blacks.

[bullseyebarb]

Originally Posted by claytonender

Whilst I am aware of the roles granted to the federal government of the US by the constitution, we have been discussing the Health Service and the Education system of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
As far as I am aware the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a sovereign country (unless we have become the 51st state of the Union whilst I was asleep last night and the news has not been disseminated to the citizens of the UK). I fail to comprehend what bearing the constitution of another country has on the UK. I am not seeking to criticize the US constitution, merely pointing out that it has no bearing whatsoever here in the UK.

It's hard to find a country that doesn't at least make an attempt to provide for its common defense. Since my mention of the U.S. Constitution appears to have offended you, let's leave that aside. My point is still applicable. Whether it is your country or mine, a national government is where this particular function should reside.

[bullseyebarb]

Originally Posted by steeljack

Sorry to disagree , but some of the teachers from 30 odd years ago (who only attended teacher training college) were a damn sight better than than some/many of the teachers of today , prime example literacy rates and the use of proper English by their end product. , maybe some will disagree , but it's my humble opinion "Degrees" have been dumbed down for political reasons (the 'no one is a loser, everyone is worth a prize' mentality), some reports go so far as to compare a present day "Degree" from one of the new universities as being on a par to a 60s A Level .
Said it before and will say it again , Places that 5 /10/15 years ago who used to issue diplomas in cake decoration or tyre changing are not universities , but technical colleges offering adult education under a different name .

Agree with this and your previous post. Parents are key.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by bullseyebarb

It's hard to find a country that doesn't at least make an attempt to provide for its common defense. Since my mention of the U.S. Constitution appears to have offended you, let's leave that aside. My point is still applicable. Whether it is your country or mine, a national government is where this particular function should reside.

the poster aint offended in my eyes barb, just stating fact.

[claytonender]

Originally Posted by bullseyebarb

It's hard to find a country that doesn't at least make an attempt to provide for its common defense. Since my mention of the U.S. Constitution appears to have offended you, let's leave that aside. My point is still applicable. Whether it is your country or mine, a national government is where this particular function should reside.

Your post did not offend me just merely pointing out that it didn't have relevance to the NHS or schools.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by claytonender

Your post did not offend me just merely pointing out that it didn't have relevance to the NHS or schools.

She was merely replying to Garinda.. both of whom made legitimate posts in reference to what they were talking about!

[claytonender]

Originally Posted by bullseyebarb

Yes. We should not be funding schools which consistently deliver bad outcomes. No parent should be forced to send their child to such an institution. That is why I favor a no strings attached voucher system. Parents should receive education dollars directly and then choose which school is worthy of getting them. Some U.S. cities have voucher programs....but only in limited quantities and for those with lower incomes. Inner city parents in particular are desperate to get their kids out of public schools. After President Obama came into office, I was extremely disappointed, (although not terribly surprised), to see that the DC voucher program was canceled. This program had allowed many students to attend local private schools, including Sidwell-Friends, where Washington's movers and shakers send their children - including Obama. An outcry ensued, causing a reversal of policy......but only for those already enrolled in a private school. No new vouchers will be issued. So, private schools for Washington elites but not for the children of working class blacks.

In my humble opinion, it is the causes of why schools are classed as failing that needs to be addressed, not just to allow the schools to fail. Also why should schools be classed as underperforming, merely on their exam results. Exam results do not take into account how much the children have improved since they joined the schools or whether many of the pupils have 'learning difficulties' of whatever degree. In Hyndburn we have a sizeable group of schoolchildren whose first language is not English. In addition there are some of the most deprived wards in England, here in Hyndburn -where children suffer from multiple causes of problems. The schools, which these children attend, have to overcome this problem before they can even begin to educate the children. So by your reckoning these schools (which by the very nature of the area of Hyndburn they are situated in) should be allowed to fail. Also have you any suggestions, as to where the pupils at these schools should be educated if they closed.

[claytonender]

Originally Posted by andrewb

She was merely replying to Garinda.. both of whom made legitimate posts in reference to what they were talking about!

Andrew
Thank you for informing me of something I already knew - but I still fail to see how mentioning the US Constitution has any relevance to the UK. Maybe you could explain.