Women blamed ....for rape

[Doug]

Originally Posted by garinda

Sorry not editing your post, a direct quote.

If that is your opinion we will have to agree to disagree, rather strongly on my part.

That was an error in writing and it should have read to mean shouldn’t. I have amended that post but I will quote it in full so that other can see the original in context.

“What I was saying is that provocative forms of dress have been with us throughout our history and shouldn’t be use in an argument that dress is associated with rape. Very few people have report rape on a nudist beach or in connection with nudism in general so in my mind the state of dress of a victim should be taken to mean that they asked for it. The rapist doesn’t necessarily think of what the victims wearing, there interested in exerting power over them and abusing the victim’s weakness.”

Anyone reading the original post would have realised my error and seen it as a mistake and not capitalised on the issued to score points.

[garinda]

I'm glad it was just a mistake.

Sorry didn't mean to jump on you.

Mistakes happen as I know, because I made one.........once.

[WillowTheWhisp]

This is so obviously an emotive issue and having read through the whole thread just now I think some of the "argument" has been due to misinterpretation, not only of what others have said but also of the original report..........quite possibly because people do have such strong opinions on the subject that they interpret something which doesn't completely echo their own view as somehow being a total opposite. It seems to me that there is actually more agreement than disagreement.

One of the problems is the emotive language such as "blame" and "shocking report"

A third of people in the UK believe a woman is partially or completely to blame for being raped if she has behaved in a flirtatious manner, according to "shocking" research.

OK so that means that two thirds of people think the victim is never to blame no matter what.

It also means that not all of that one third of the people questioned believe tthe woman to be fully to blame. Note that I said "people questioned" and not "people in the UK" which the report said because I'm a person in the UK and nobody asked my opinion. Who was asked?

OK so now we have less than a third who believe the woman was partly to blame. Not quite as dramatic that is it?

More than a quarter also believe a woman is at least partly responsible for being raped if she wears sexy or revealing clothing, or is drunk, the ICM study found.

"More than a quarter" here is used to cover two points of the "sexy clothing" or "drunk". Note that it says "or" not "and". AND please note that it says "partly". So now we have MORE than a quarter who think "partly" so between this "more than a quarter" and "one third" how many do we actually have left who think "totally"?

One in five thinks a woman is partly to blame if it is known she has many sexual partners,

I'll come back to this one.

while more than a third believe she is responsible to some degree if she has clearly failed to say "no" to the man.

This is the bit which really interests me "if she has clearly failed to say "no" to the man". Here we are not talking about "No" not meaning "No" and the man going ahead anyway. We are talking about a situation where a woman has failed to say "No". Not only failed but "clearly failed"

If a woman has dressed "provocatively" - which is open to interpretation because in her opinion she may have dressed "attractively" but it may be seen as provocative. If she has set out to attract the attention of men in the hope of nabbing one worth having. If she then flirts with him and encourages his attentions. If both become drunk. If they go back to her place and spend the night together and she has given out no signals which say "no" but then wakes in the morning realising that she didn't intend to go as far as intercourse and then claims he has raped her is it his fault? I would say not.

When it comes to how many sexual partners the woman has had I can't see that really has any bearing on an individual case, although if she is well known for "sleeping around" then the lads might have her already labelled as "easy" and not expect her to refuse. If she then accuses him of rape the next morning but has never accused any of the previous one night stands I can see where he might feel a bit victimised.

All of this is totally different to the situation where someone forces themselves upon a woman in a back alley or on a dark pathway and brutally attacks them. There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever in those cases whatever a person is wearing or whether or not they are drunk.

I hope that makes sense. It's very difficult to explain what I mean by typing onto a message board.

Pendy said that rape is not about sex it's about control and in many cases that is absolutely correct and it wouldn't matter to the rapist if the woman was covered from head to toe (he may even get some sort of kick from that) or stark naked. That is a different set up to one where the man honestly believes the woman was encouraging him and wanting the same thing and then finds himself labelled a criminal the next morning.

As mentioned by others, I also feel that the accused should not be named unless found guilty because there are many cases where an innocent man's life has been ruined by people continuing to mutter "no smoke without fire" even when his innocence has been totally proved.

[SPUGGIE J]

Originally Posted by garinda

Errrrr..................YES Spuggie!

Your not telling me that if you saw a girl with a short skirt and a low cut top, you would take it as an invitation to touch her????????

No it I wouldnt but some would. I respect that a women can wear the clothes shewants without implying that she is "looking for something else." Its no different than if I was wearing a kilt and a women decided to find out if I had gone commando or not. I am old fashioned in many ways and think that a woman has the right to be who she is.

[garinda]

From the Amnesty press release-

ICM interviewed a random sample of 1,095 adults aged 18+ by telephone on 7-9 October 2005. Interviews were conducted across the country and the results have been weighted to the profile of adults. ICM is a member of the British Polling Council.

I do take you point Willow. It's the glass half full or empty question. I do however find the results of the survey depressing.

[SPUGGIE J]

Where is this depressing set of findings to be found?

[garinda]

I just did a Google search for it Spug. Sorry I'd do a link but I'm a bit thick.

[SPUGGIE J]

ICM interviewed a random sample of 1095 adults aged 18+, by telephone between 7th and 9th October 2005. Interviews were conducted across the country and the results have been weighted to the profile of all adults.

http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews...al%20Abuse.asp

It is an eye opener.

[pendy]

We come back to the question of "What is rape?". Rape is non-consensual sexual intercourse. The key is "non-consensual". There are cases where a woman has regretted what she has done the night before, or even not remembered it, but those are thankfully few. The grandson of a friend of mine was accused of rape by a fellow-student on exactly those grounds (also due to the fact that he wanted a one-night stand and she wanted more). Fortunately she retracted her story when she realised the full consequences - he was a medical student at the time and it would have wrecked his potential career.

The biggest problem for a woman with the usual form of rape, i.e. an attack by a stranger, either in her home or outdoors, is whether or not to fight back. If you fight back, the chances are you will be badly hurt, or even killed if he is armed. If you don't fight back, the lack of injuries weakens your case. As a woman, I know that you can only be aware of the danger and hope to avoid it.

As for it being due to provocative clothing and sex appeal - what about the pervs who attack women in their 80s and rape them? I think not.

[SPUGGIE J]

Originally Posted by pendy

There are cases where a woman has regretted what she has done the night before, or even not remembered it, but those are thankfully few.

Its when these few act as they do that makes it hard for the genuine victims and life hell for the innocent ones caught up in it.

[accymel]

Dont forget we are discussing much as a local issue as well as national & there have been many cases here to which im not going into detail as respect to victims & families & wish to opologise if this thread is upsetting but awarness is best defence in personal protection. I dont walk alone certainly avoid going out in the dark alone unneccessarily & im sure im not alone with this.

[Tealeaf]

You never had all these rapes going on when women knew how to beheave themselves. Yet even now, as half-naked, fully intoxicated drunken tartlets stagger home after a night of wild debauchery,incidents of strangers leaping out of the bushes then forcing their way upon thee hapless young maidens are mercifully, few & far between.
According to the stats, most victims know the men who commit the crime, be they boyfriends or friends-of-friends. it would seem to me therefore, that if women are so hung up about the possibility of this happening to them, they should take the appropriate precautions - the equivalent of wearing a seat belt in the car. Who complains about that these days? No-one.
Historically, the precaution was the use of a chaperone. It seemed to work. So girls, if you're going out on a date or even a girlie night out and you're feeling a little bit apprehensive about the guy(s) in question, then take your grandma or aunt along. Its practically guaranteed that nowt will happen.

[accymel]

Mmmm u dont know your facts at all Tealeaf granny's & older covered up aunts are NOT dismissed from being subjected to attacks!!!! There are some very sick people out there that dont preference the scantily clad & dont dismiss the scantily as being not brave to knee the pervs balls, besides you have to be very careful to provoke someone with a weapon!!! Even guys are subjected to such attacks so my point was being that stereotypical opinions influences are not gospel, children get preyed on, there seems to be no specific target - just that what that perv focusses on his depraved urges.

[pendy]

I WON'T let any perv stop me going out at night if I want to or need to. That said, I am very aware and very careful. I was advised by a friend who is a policewoman to think through possible scenarios and devise strategies to deal with and hopefully defuse situations. One or two of them are too extreme for general consumption, but I'm happy to share with any of you girls. The thinking is that if you are aware of what might happen, and plan in advance, you will be far better able to cope with such a situation if it does arise.

You cannot live your life according to the dictates of some perv who may be out there, all you can do is hope to deal with bad situations if they do arise.

[SPUGGIE J]

A swansea court has thrown this issue wide open again around consent when drunk. Judge directs jury to aquit because the lady in question could not remember if consent was given. This is one hell of a can of worms and is notgoing to help the real victims.