you will pray to Allah

[Eric]

It crosses my colonial mind that this subject would not be much of an issue if home-grown, British muslims had not bombed London buses and the subway, and that muslems were not killing and maiming British troops in Iraq and Afghanistan ... I do believe that any animosity towards muslims has little to do with whom they pray to, and much to do with Islamic extremism, not only in England, but also around the world. One can hear many anti-muslem statements from ordinary Canadians, and it gets worse as the casualty list in Afghanistan grows larger ... I can't argue that this is right, but it is understandable.

[WillowTheWhisp]

That's not where I'm coming from Eric. The fact that it was non-Muslims being asked to participate in prayers of Islam is purely incidental to me. As I've said earlier I would feel the same about it if it were Jewish children being asked to pray to Jesus.

I don't think the teacher should be sacked. I do think he/she should have been more sensitive to the children in the situation and I do not think detention was appropriate. Neither extreme is ideal.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

That's not where I'm coming from Eric. The fact that it was non-Muslims being asked to participate in prayers of Islam is purely incidental to me. As I've said earlier I would feel the same about it if it were Jewish children being asked to pray to Jesus.

I don't think the teacher should be sacked. I do think he/she should have been more sensitive to the children in the situation and I do not think detention was appropriate. Neither extreme is ideal.

I think the point I was trying to make, is that there has to be something more than religious tolerance at issue in order to generate such a heated debate. I know only a couple of muslims well; and as far as I can remember my latitudinarian attitudes and their commitment to Islam has never come up in conversation in any serious fashion. It's not the question of religious tolerance I see being debated here, but more like the question of National identity ...

[katex]

Originally Posted by jambutty

Learning about other religions is a different ball game to taking part in the rituals of a religion especially when no choice was offered.

Then taking retribution by awarding detention is a step too far. That teacher should be sacked.

Oh dear Jambutty, making judgements on hearsay are you ?



" That also makes the incident hearsay, doesn’t it? Do we also call it hearsay when a report in the media states what so and so has said? No of course not we take such reports at face value until it can be shown that the report wasn’t accurate " .. your quote from another thread.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by katex

Oh dear Jambutty, making judgements on hearsay are you ?



" That also makes the incident hearsay, doesn’t it? Do we also call it hearsay when a report in the media states what so and so has said? No of course not we take such reports at face value until it can be shown that the report wasn’t accurate " .. your quote from another thread.

this will be one response i can't wait for.

[katex]

Originally Posted by cashman

this will be one response i can't wait for.

I know, risking it aren't I, think I will emigrate ....

[accyman]

you will pray to Allah

when i was 10 i would have prayed to anyone as long as i got a BMX

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by Eric

I think the point I was trying to make, is that there has to be something more than religious tolerance at issue in order to generate such a heated debate. I know only a couple of muslims well; and as far as I can remember my latitudinarian attitudes and their commitment to Islam has never come up in conversation in any serious fashion. It's not the question of religious tolerance I see being debated here, but more like the question of National identity ...

No, it tends not to crop up when I chat to Muslims I know about other things either, but Islam is the actual topic of this thread because it's about 2 non-Muslims who were given detention for declining to participate in a Muslim form of worship. We/they should be free to decline to participate in any or all forms of worship should we/they so wish. Provisions and allowances are made for such in school for those whose religious affiliations would be offended by taking part in worship based assemblies, prayers, nativity plays etc. It's not as if the idea is unprecedented.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

No, it tends not to crop up when I chat to Muslims I know about other things either, but Islam is the actual topic of this thread because it's about 2 non-Muslims who were given detention for declining to participate in a Muslim form of worship. We/they should be free to decline to participate in any or all forms of worship should we/they so wish. Provisions and allowances are made for such in school for those whose religious affiliations would be offended by taking part in worship based assemblies, prayers, nativity plays etc. It's not as if the idea is unprecedented.

In other words, I should read the lines and not between them

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by katex

Oh dear Jambutty, making judgements on hearsay are you ?



" That also makes the incident hearsay, doesn’t it? Do we also call it hearsay when a report in the media states what so and so has said? No of course not we take such reports at face value until it can be shown that the report wasn’t accurate " .. your quote from another thread.

According to the OED:
Hearsay - noun - information which cannot be adequately substantiated; rumour.

The question is, is a report in the newspaper or on the TV or radio hearsay/rumour?

If the answer is yes then you, me and most posters have been commenting on hearsay in this and many other threads.

But I don’t think that a report in the newspaper or on the TV or radio is hearsay, in the accepted definition of the word. Whereas reporting what someone said what someone else said or did is hearsay.

In the butty issue the reporter reported what was told to him. The shopkeeper made a statement and so did the school head. Was that hearsay? Did other people comment on what the head stated and also the shopkeeper? The answer is yes they did. So if I am commenting on hearsay, so are other people. So go and pick on them also. Or is this yet another childish “Nah! Nah! Nah! Nah! Nah! Jambutty is wrong!” attempt?

So it really depends on what you understand the definition of hearsay to be.

[katex]

Originally Posted by jambutty

According to the OED:
Hearsay - noun - information which cannot be adequately substantiated; rumour.

The question is, is a report in the newspaper or on the TV or radio hearsay/rumour?

If the answer is yes then you, me and most posters have been commenting on hearsay in this and many other threads.

But I don’t think that a report in the newspaper or on the TV or radio is hearsay, in the accepted definition of the word. Whereas reporting what someone said what someone else said or did is hearsay.

In the butty issue the reporter reported what was told to him. The shopkeeper made a statement and so did the school head. Was that hearsay? Did other people comment on what the head stated and also the shopkeeper? The answer is yes they did. So if I am commenting on hearsay, so are other people. So go and pick on them also. Or is this yet another childish “Nah! Nah! Nah! Nah! Nah! Jambutty is wrong!” attempt?

So it really depends on what you understand the definition of hearsay to be.

Think I actually scored a point here. Hands up those who agree ...

[WillowTheWhisp]

I'm with you there Katex

However, this is taking thread wandering to the extremes. We have one perfectly adequate thread about the butty shop saga yet Jambutty has to go and bring it up on this thread too.

But as we are on the subject of reports in newspapers and heresay - my OWN opinion on the matter is that if a reporter reports events which have been told to him by the person they happened to and the events involve another person who has not personally made a comment then I regard the portion which refers to acts by the other person as heresay. As in the case of the butty shop owner who stated that the teacher was less than calm, cool and collected when addressing her pupils. We only have the butty shop owner's word for that. We have no confirmation (or otherwise) by the teacher or by a third party witness. Therefore IMO the statement cannot be taken at face value.

Now can we get back to religious practices in schools.

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by katex

Think I actually scored a point here. Hands up those who agree ...

So you admit it! Posting on this forum is all about scoring points.

Just as I suspected all along.

And it is no surprise that WillowTheWhisp agrees with you.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Well done Jim.

[BERNADETTE]

Not another thread!!!