Young people today

[Bazf]

IMHO I think it started going down hill when they dropped the voting age to 18 and also the drinking age to 18, no matter what teenagers say they are not mature enough at 18 to make decsions. Also not enough emphasis on staying in school, everyone wants to leave early, why? because a lot of parents are under the impression that you dont need to go to Uni and no pressure is put on kids in school to improve, if they show a lack of ability in a subject then they are left behind the teacher has to much to do to help the slow kids.So they leave at 16/15 not a lot to do but hey the dole pays out till you get a job, how many 16yr olds do you see in pubs or drunk at 1am in Burnley/Blackburn town center again in my opinion too many. JW earlier in the thread mentioned the USA and how different it is, yes the area he lives in is not on the poverty line like Accy but it does have its hood, (low income housing,unemployed,drug dealers etc..) whats the biggest difference I noticed when I came home at Christmas the amount of kids in pubs and condoned by the parents. Is it TV that makes them in to little adults or the parents, "oh look our Jonnys ****ed, oh isnt he funny when he cant walk" not to funny when hes being picked up for being drunk and disorderly but hey hes only a kid officer, the police always pick on kids.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I agree with you that at 18 many young people are really not mature enough to make serious decisions even though they themselves probably think they are. I remember someone I know saying she was voting for a certain person because he was good looking! Like that is really going to help run the country.

One reason why poorer families do not encourage their children to stay on at school and beyond is the actual cost of them going to Uni. The lack of student grants and the ethos of student debt doesn't create an ideal situation. I've heard people say that the government obviously doesn't want poor people to get a higher education these days and I can see why they feel that way.

The way JohnW talks about the USA he gives the impression that there is very little evidence of problems caused by low income let alone drug dealers etc. My cousin lives in California which has its share of affluence but also a large number of people not only on the poverty line but well below it and referred to as "the underclass" - what a depressing title.

Kids in pubs. Yes well my kids go with us into pubs for meals. Quite often the best meals out are to be found in pubs. They don't drink alcohol (but then again neither do I) Maybe it's because pubs concentrate more on the restaurant side these days that you get whole families in there.

I see young drunks in town too but it's hard to know how old they are. There does seem to be this culture amongst young teens that you can't have enjoyed yourself unless you get totally blotto and can't remember a thing the next morning. I think alcopops and fancy drinks have a lot to do with encouraging kids to drink. It's a sad state of affairs isn't it?

[Lampman]

Well we have had a various reponse to the thread,some interesting views have been stated.I had hoped that some of the members involved in Youth Work would have responded;after all they are at the sharp end!
Just as a matter of interest the BBC will shortly be broadcasting a programme,that shows that Accrington doesn't yet have the monoply on Youth problems.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ma/3747120.stm
I shudder to think what life will be like if and when this particular culture arrives in our neck of the woods.

[lettie]

That's a scary link there Lampman. I do know parents who have no idea where their children are when they are out with their mates. I am not talking about just teens here, but younger children too. I don't know if the situation is worse today than it was with the teddy boys, rockers etc, as I don't remember that era. I would say that it seems to be worse than the punks/skins/goths gangs who were around when I was a teenager. I used to frequent the same places as some of these people and still see them now. To my recollection it was rare for anyone to carry a weopon (gun/knife etc) but a Doc Martin used to hurt like hell when kicked by one..

[WillowTheWhisp]

It is scary Lettie, I agree. I know of one instance of a child taking a knife to school (primary school) a couple of years ago.

I remember having a penknife as a child but I used it to carve the middle out of a swede at Hallowe'en ............. and a tiring process that was, made your hand ache. It would never have occurred to me to use it as a weapaoan against anyone else.

A friend of mine (boy) spent many hours "sittin' wit'lin" as he called it.

I worry about the way things seem to be going these days and wish someone who thinks they have the solution could advise us what to do.

[Bazf]

Willow your right about them not wanting to fund higher education but its not just now it was also when I left school plus the fact that the UK has made it elitist so its not available to everyone, it a crying shame when you see figures that show more people are getting degrees through open univeristy with an average age of over 37 then people leaving our higher education establishments.
I could live with your argument about food in pubs but I am not talking about a family out eating, I saw many of them and ate in quiet a few while home, I am talking about going in to pubs in Accy and seeing 15 and 16 years old kids getting drunk and as I still like to pub crawl seeing the same kids bumping in to there parents in different pubs.
Here is an ordinunce from St Petersburg(next door to Tampa, not Russia)

At the BayWalk entertainment complex in St. Petersburg, youths under 18 must be with a guardian who is at least 21 years old after 11 p.m. On the second floor, where the bars are located, youths under 18 must be with a parent or guardian after 9 p.m.
The city of Pinellas Park technically still has a juvenile curfew, but officials have decided not to enforce it until all court challenges are complete.

Could/would this happen in Accy?

[WillowTheWhisp]

In theory education is supposed to be available for everyone. At one time there were student grants. Now there are student loans which encourages them to start out life with a huge debt.

On the subject of drinking and kids, am I being naive thinking there is a law which says you have to be 18 to purchase and consume alcohol here? If these kids are obviously 15/16 shouldn't the pubs be refusing to serve them?

I know we have little notices up saying the consuming of alcohol on the street is forbidden - just how strongly enforced this is I have no idea.

This summer we went to the Light & Water Festival in Morecambe where the new policy is no alcohol to be consumed in the arena. In the afternoon a couple of middle aged harmless characters were marched off and told off for having cans of lager - but later in the evening we saw people with large bottles of cider, vodka, and various alcopops with not a soul in sight doing a thing about it. What is the point of having laws/rules if there's no-one there to enforce them?

Ooh, wait a minute, maybe our Crime Czars could do it?

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by Chappy

Maybe Kipax gave his kids love and affection, and gave them respect when the did something right? shame most adults today cant give youths respect to.
.................................................. ...........................

Give our children a chance! its up to us to show them respect. Unless we give them respect we should not expect it back?

I also give my children love and affection, and praise them when they do something right.

If they are respect worthy then they earn respect, it isn't a tit for tat thing. I don't expect respect from someone because I respect them and I don't respect them in order to gain their respect. If I respect someone it is because they are deserving of it. (That's almost a worse tongue twister than Peter Piper picking his peck of pickled pepper!)

[Steven]

I dont smack my children i never have i never will because of what i believe in.

I think that to "punish" a child by taking away privalidges eg computor or their TV for a week is surley going to impact (parden the pun) them more than a slap or clip around the ear.
This is because society has moved on and so punishment has to move on because, so to take away there enjoyment factor for a week or a few days is going to be felt more by them.
Because when my dad used to hit me that was the only real option for him. But now as a parent i beleive i can "punish" my children for misbehaviour better than a clip around the ear hole.

[WillowTheWhisp]

That's similar to how my children would be punished for misbehaviour today (grounding - ie no playing out and no friends in) is usually what I go for, but they are old enough at 10 and 13 for that to have an impact. They are old enough to reason with and to explain things to.

What I'd really like to know is how you go about preventing a toddler from doing something which may be dangerous. (fingers in the fire and that kind of thng) I don't assume a toddler is even aware of the existence of a computer so to deprive them of it wouldn't mean anything. I don't personally know of an alternative which would be effective and would appreciate knowing how you disciplined yours when they were tiny.

I know someone suggested earlier in this thread that I abuse my children by continually hitting them which is a million miles from the truth. They were smacked when they were too young to understand anything different (or I was unaware of anything which they would understand at that age) and having learned not to do those things we moved on. As they grew older then it became more possible to reason with them and to explain the reasons for not doing things.

Yes, I did try to protect them from dangers but I had one toddler who managed to build herself a bridge to climb over the child gate at her bedroom door - that was the kind of initiative I was up against. I put plug guards in the sockets, she removed them. I said "don't do that" She still removed them.

Perhaps you've been very lucky with children who understood your instructions from a very early age and didn't experiment with ways to overcome obstacles.

[Busman747]

Originally Posted by Steven

I dont smack my children i never have i never will because of what i believe in.

I think that to "punish" a child by taking away privalidges eg computor or their TV for a week is surley going to impact (parden the pun) them more than a slap or clip around the ear.
Because when my dad used to hit me that was the only real option for him. But now as a parent i beleive i can "punish" my children for misbehaviour better than a clip around the ear hole.

Thank you Steven for returning to the link to explain yourelf. I am sorry that your father meted out punishment in such a way but it helps others to understand your reasoning for not smacking your children. I hope you understand that the vast majority of "smacking" parents do not "give a clip round the ear!" What we are discussing is chastisement for toddlers to help them appreciate the dangers in everyday life.

Previously, I mentioned a German leather belt that my father used to threaten me with, (He used the leather to re-sole his shoes and it got shorter and shorter... ) As a child, he was brought up in a small Welsh mining community and his dad would regularly beat him up after returning from the pits of an evening!! It was so bad, my Dad left home at 14 and made his way to Bedfordshire. He knew the difference between bullying and chastisement and applied it to his family in the best way he knew.

I understand your reasoning when you "deny" access to computers etc as a way of punishing a child but this can work for only a short while as it eventually causes friction between parents and child unless there is a deep-seated "trust" between the three of you. The way forward in my opinion is to show the child at an early age that the parent is right and for the child to respect and listen to the reasoning of parents. THEN you can reason with them and explain in words what is wrong with the actions that they took (or not!)

[Lampman]

Just a thought,could some of the problem stem from the fact that more children are affected by divorce nowadays?
One of the great influences of my own childhood were my Grandparents.If the family has split then access to this older wiser(?)generation is restricted.
Often Grandparents had more time and patience to share with children than the busy parents;perhaps they learned from their own failings,how to treat the youngsters in their care?

[KIPAX]

I have not only stopped posting in this thread (yes yes i know) but on accy web as a whole.. I think some of the things that have been said to me, about me and and the if, buts, and maybes asked about the way I treat my children are nothing short of disgusting. at least one deleted by gobsmacked on request that was attacking my wife really upset me but some of the suggestions by busman i find absoloutly insulting. its the ifs and the open to question wether I love my children I find the hardest to deal with.

My crime?

I dont hit my children.

Your response to me as a whole for that crime is .... well.

Gooodbye

[Darby]

Originally Posted by KIPAX

I have not only stopped posting in this thread (yes yes i know) but on accy web as a whole.. I think some of the things that have been said to me, about me and and the if, buts, and maybes asked about the way I treat my children are nothing short of disgusting. at least one deleted by gobsmacked on request that was attacking my wife really upset me but some of the suggestions by busman i find absoloutly insulting. its the ifs and the open to question wether I love my children I find the hardest to deal with.

My crime?

I dont hit my children.

Your response to me as a whole for that crime is .... well.


Gooodbye

-That's a pity Kipax.-

However, I don't feel that he is suitable for this forum, as he is far to sensitive to anthing that can be construed as criticism. Unfortunately to disagree with him, is taken immediately as personal criticism...but it isn't, nor (as far as I can discern) is it intended by anyone taking part in the forum discussions.

I, nor anybody else has made a personal assault on Kipax's integrity for his point of view against smacking/hitting children. Also, I for one valued his input, as it made the rest of us think about that particular point of view, and I think he was right to do so, and I don't for one minute even remotely think that he doesn't love his children less than anybody else, in fact such a thought has never entered my head.

I wish he would re-consider leaving the site as he has a lot to offer.

[davy_boy]

There are foul mouthed bad mannered youngsters today yes, but there are also many more kind hearted, caring, polite ones too.

I am in my 40s, but I am told I look a lot younger than my age. However, I found there are some people ("some" being the important word here) who are in my age group, & into their 50s and even 60s, who I can only describe as simply plain bad mannered. In the supermarket, in the town & in the car, they push their way around, are totally oblivious that you are there, and are determined to get there first.

There are many, many well mannered people around. Youngsters & older people alike, but there are also those in all these age groups that are so bad mannered and uncaring that, quite frankly, I stand there shocked and dumb-founded.