Bethel Chapel "walking" crusade - Page 3

susie123 · 15-02-2012, 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karateman

A
Where was the bethel on Barnes street...cant see it on Accy map of 1890?
Phil

Try this...
Barnes Street Garage Ltd. Barnes Street, Accrington, Lancashire, BB5 6RN:: OS grid SD7628 :: Geograph Britain and Ireland - photograph every grid square!

Look again at the 1890 map, clearly marked near the top on the north side it says Bethel Chapel, just before Park Mills.

JCB · 15-02-2012, 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karateman

Some more photos which I think were in front of the Chapel...

In them my mum is wearing the same uniform as in the Walking photo.....

If I am wrong and with all the doubting, I am beginning to doubt myself now.......and this isn't Hyndburn rd then I apologise..

Phil

The entrance on the photos is similar to the one at Elim Pentecostal church on Blackburn Rd facing where the Grammar School used to be .

susie123 · 15-02-2012, 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by susie123

We need to establish whether the chapel in the photos with your mum is actually the building that was between those two houses on Hyndburn road, also when it burnt down.

Although they have gothic details, not sure that those two houses were part of a church. If they were transepts with a church between, as Atarah says in the comment on Flickr, the roofs would have been at 90 degrees to the way they are now, ie with the ridge line heading towardsthe building in the middle rather than parallel to it.

Also if part of a church there would not have been chimneys or upstairs windows and if these were put in after the church was destroyed it would have been after 1930 or so if the chapel photos are of that building, but they don't look like they are a late addition.

I think these may have been separate buildings, perhaps a presbytery and a Sunday school but all in all quite substantiial buildings to have only been used for a short time before Sacred Heart was built.

Wish I were in Accy, I would go and have a look at the houses myself..

Quote:

Originally Posted by susie123

Looking at the second of the chapel photos, the detail of the head of the window to the right of the porch is different from that of the windows in the gable end of the Hyndburn road houses, suggesting that they were not all part of the same buiding.

Have found an Accyweb thread from 2004 which has solved some problems and given some answers.

First, this quote from Acrylic-Bob, though I don't know where he got his info from:

St Oswalds Church Was situated on Hyndburn Road between Elmfield House (later Gatty Park) and Hags Mill at the bottom of the footpath known locally as 'Owd bob's'
It was built in 1852 and ceased to be a church when the Sacred Heart Church was built on Blackburn Road in 1869. The building survived until the outbreak of the second world war being latterly used for storing tyres. It was destroyed by fire on the morning of 16th October 1943. The building comprised a central nave and two transepts. The transepts survived the fire and were converted into houses. They can still be seen on Hyndburn Road.

So the church was still standing in the 20s/30s.

Second, a photo showing the church.

Looking at the detail of the front door, gate posts and small front windows I would say this IS the same building as in the photos with your mum. So you were right.

I still say the houses were not transepts, they look more like small buildings stuck on the corners. And they do have chimneys and upstairs windows then, which part of a church would not have. More likely vestries or meeting rooms maybe.

Blowing up the photo, the attached building on the right has a separate entrance with gate posts and what looks like a front door, plus greenhouse and garden in front. Also dormers in the roof which you wouldn't have in the church. I reckon it was the priest's house.

Think I'll have a rest now, done enough digging on this...

JCB · 15-02-2012, 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCB

The entrance on the photos is similar to the one at Elim Pentecostal church on Blackburn Rd facing where the Grammar School used to be .

No it isn't . I've just been past it .

Karateman · 15-02-2012, 19:10

Yee Ha...!!!! thanks Susie...I am resting a lot easier now...are you called Susie Holmes by the way?
First ref the Barnes St Bethel,I wrongly assumed everyone meant barnes St in CHURCH ....Doh...Sorry.

I have been talking today with a friend whose grandparents currently live in one of the houses..the right hand side one I think. They moved in 50yrs ago and say the church was not there then.
She confirmed the two houses were apparently connected to the church before it burnt down..precepts as you say.
She also confirmed that there is a cellar under the house in which they discovered a passage which went under where the church had stood and into the cellar of the house on the other side. There is a ghostly rumour that the passage went on all the way to Accy...but it is a rumour at the moment.
She also said that Hyndburn council reclaimed some of the Garden at the front of the buildings to widen Hyndburn rd.... within the last 50 yrs...anyone remember.
My friend will ask he gran to E mail me some pics she has and some more details.
We used to live on Blackburn Rd near the grammar School and mum also worshiped at the Elim church opposite the school.
The great Christian Revival crusades you mention in the area is where she met my father so everything seems to be falling into place time wise.
Maybe the church changed religion to the Bethel faith since most Catholics went to Sacred heart and then when it burnt down she found other places of worship.

My quest goes on...LOL

Phil

Karateman · 15-02-2012, 19:29

St Oswalds Church Was situated on Hyndburn Road between Elmfield House (later Gatty Park) and Hags Mill at the bottom of the footpath known locally as 'Owd bob's'
It was built in 1852 and ceased to be a church when the Sacred Heart Church was built on Blackburn Road in 1869. The building survived until the outbreak of the second world war being latterly used for storing tyres. It was destroyed by fire on the morning of 16th October 1943. The building comprised a central nave and two transepts. The transepts survived the fire and were converted into houses. They can still be seen on Hyndburn Road.

Destroyed by fire in 1943 sounds feasible but it was obviously some place of worship as seen from my photos..we have a minister in the pic as well, so I cant fully agree with AB saying it ceased to be a church.

Phil

susie123 · 15-02-2012, 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karateman

Yee Ha...!!!! thanks Susie...I am resting a lot easier now...are you called Susie Holmes by the way?
First ref the Barnes St Bethel,I wrongly assumed everyone meant barnes St in CHURCH ....Doh...Sorry.

I have been talking today with a friend whose grandparents currently live in one of the houses..the right hand side one I think. They moved in 50yrs ago and say the church was not there then.
She confirmed the two houses were apparently connected to the church before it burnt down..precepts as you say.
She also confirmed that there is a cellar under the house in which they discovered a passage which went under where the church had stood and into the cellar of the house on the other side. There is a ghostly rumour that the passage went on all the way to Accy...but it is a rumour at the moment.
She also said that Hyndburn council reclaimed some of the Garden at the front of the buildings to widen Hyndburn rd.... within the last 50 yrs...anyone remember.
My friend will ask he gran to E mail me some pics she has and some more details.
We used to live on Blackburn Rd near the grammar School and mum also worshiped at the Elim church opposite the school.
The great Christian Revival crusades you mention in the area is where she met my father so everything seems to be falling into place time wise.
Maybe the church changed religion to the Bethel faith since most Catholics went to Sacred heart and then when it burnt down she found other places of worship.

My quest goes on...LOL

Phil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karateman

Destroyed by fire in 1943 sounds feasible but it was obviously some place of worship as seen from my photos..we have a minister in the pic as well, so I cant fully agree with AB saying it ceased to be a church.
Phil

No probs Phil, I have time on my hands at the moment, glad to put it to good use and I enjoy digging! No I am not Susie Holmes and I prefer to be called Sue, susie is my nom deplume/alias.

By the way the word is transept not precept, but still don't think those two buildings were part of the actual church, rather served other functions like housing the priest etc.

We should try and find out what happened to the actual church between the catholics leaving in 1869 and the Bethel crusaders appearing in the late 20s/30s. It was still marked as a chapel on the 1890 map - I wonder about other maps after that? The Bethel chapel probably ceased to exist in the late 30s if you read the crusade's history so it could have been a warehouse after that before it burnt down. If that was 1943 it would be right when your friend's grandma said there was no church when they moved in 50 years ago. And I would hazard a guess that your mum moved on before 1943. Those photos suggest late 20s early 30s to me. It definitely seems to have been a chapel then.

Don't know anything about the Elim church so wouldn't know when it opened for business. The road widening seems feasible when you look at the old photo of the church and see how far back the houses seem from the road. As for a tunnel going to Accrington... there are stories like that all over the place...

Karateman · 15-02-2012, 23:00

Hi Sue,
you obviously didn't get my little joke...Susie Holmes...er... Sherlock....super sleuth....thought you was related to him with all the brilliant detective work......LOL

Where did I get flippin PRECEPT from....it must be late

Phil

susie123 · 15-02-2012, 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karateman

Hi Sue,
you obviously didn't get my little joke...Susie Holmes...er... Sherlock....super sleuth....thought you was related to him with all the brilliant detective work......LOL

Where did I get flippin PRECEPT from....it must be late

Phil

oh dear sorry... must have had a sense of humour bypass... I'll try and get it reversed...

Karateman · 17-02-2012, 10:14

Just drove past the top of Steiner st and the first half of the block between steiner and frederick st has smooth stone similar to the picture.. Might well match ......
Phil

Bob Dobson · 17-02-2012, 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karateman

Just drove past the top of Steiner st and the first half of the block between steiner and frederick st has smooth stone similar to the picture.. Might well match ......
Phil

I think the pavement is too narrow for this location. There were lots of shops on that block.

susie123 · 17-02-2012, 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karateman

Just drove past the top of Steiner st and the first half of the block between steiner and frederick st has smooth stone similar to the picture.. Might well match ......
Phil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Dobson

I think the pavement is too narrow for this location. There were lots of shops on that block.

I did have a look at that block the other day on Streetview, just looked again, the stone is right but I think the windows are too close together.

Bob the pavement could have been altered and did you mean you have info about shops there in the 20s/30s?

Phil you're just going to have to keep driving round Accy/Church till you find the right spot!

cashman · 17-02-2012, 13:46

Unless its long gone? the place i thought,most of block is long gone.

AccyGirl · 17-02-2012, 16:59

Good photo here of the two houses on Hyndburn Road:

Roman Catholic Transepts, Hyndburn Road, Accrington | Flickr - Photo Sharing![/QUOTE]

The above link is a photo of Ivy Cottage...and the cottage next door is Rose Cottage.....I lived in Ivy Cottage in 1962 and 1963 .... it was owned by Ida Walsh... my bedroom was at the rear and overlooked the bowling green in Gatty Park...also there was a cellar.......and here is another picture which I found on Accy Web..it shows the old Church from the side...

susie123 · 17-02-2012, 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by AccyGirl

and here is another picture which I found on Accy Web..it shows the old Church from the side...

Another great photo, well done Accygirl. Wonder what date it was.

Seems that the road widening then had stopped at the Accy boundary, you can see the kink in the road on the 1890 map.

Wonder what the low building opposite was, just looked on Google satellite view and it's still there. Looks like a gate lodge, but if it were to Gatty pk it's on the wrong side of the road. Did the Steiners have a house on that side?

The photo must be after the school was built.

The Hag dye works next to the church presumably belonged to the Gatty family. I wonder if they gave the land for the church. The family came from France so I presume they were catholic.

What a lot of interesting avenues your post has opened up Phil!