Our Market Hall up for grabs. - Page 2

WillowTheWhisp · 09-10-2004, 07:42

Count me in on that. I shall be writing to both today.

As for the clock - Kipax deserves a lot of credit for the way he tackled the Arndale centre etc, and I still think we shouldn't let that drop either.

This is our town but our views are being ignored.

Acrylic-bob · 09-10-2004, 08:01

I quite agree on all those points Willow.
I think we need some sort of list of grievances/mistakes/bungling.

BTW do you know if Nigel Rix ever responded to Kipax's letter?

Baconman · 10-10-2004, 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob

Right troops, If you are as p*ssed off with all this nonsense as I am then here is the first thing that we must all do.

Write to your councillor, tell him/her that you are aware of the proposals to sell off council assets, tell them that you object to the proposals. If you are stuck for words feel free to help yourself to any of the ideas expressed by me in various threads here .

Make two copies of the letter send one to your councillor and one to the Editor of the Observer.

Do it now! Time is of the essence and delay will only make matters worse.

From reading various reports on the HBC website, it seems clear that this scheme has it's origin within Scaitcliffe House and Hyndburn First. It strikes me that the time has come for a public call for resignations.

I have just joind and have been reading all the previous postings and as a Stall holder all my working life in the Market Hall I am not giving in so easy.
I am attending an invited meeting on Tuesday comming and have been involved in many other meetingd previously. I will report back with what has actually been said at the meeting and not what the chinese wispers say.

WillowTheWhisp · 10-10-2004, 18:53

Thanks Baconman. We'd love to know what happens from a first hand report.

Baconman · 12-10-2004, 18:33

Hi all.
Just got back from the Market and Council meeting.
As I have been involved in many meetings in the past 10years I was awear that the Council has been low on funds (if any) for sometime.
What I can tell you is that MR Britcliff said....They ARE NOT selling off the Market Hall they are looking into planning for the future and one of the ways is to invite investors/partners to put forward plans to finance this.
Adverts will be placed in / Around November 04 for investors / partners to come on board to refurbish and Possibly take on the management of the market hall in a leaseing capacity.Though the management would be optional.
The off shot of the meeting is that a sub committee of 2 tennents, 2 council officers and 2 chamber of Trade members will meet when all the tenders are in , they will consult with all involved to see if any inverstor comes up with a good and forward moving business plan to improve the Market Hall and therefore secure our Trades in the Market Hall.
We have been informed that out tenancies are secure.um! Rents may be another matter, we will see. By Jan/ feb 05 start looking at narrowing down the list of investors.Then Looking at possibly late 05/early 06 for work to commence on improving the Market Hall.
This all bearing in mind if we get any investors.

The general feel of the Traders was that we do need improvment desperatly and this is one way to look at improving matters. They are most concerned that they are consulted all the way along and not taken for granted.
I personally am cautious but see the need to move forward and improve the Market Hall. I am also not stupid and am not fully taken in by promises until they are written instone.No business can stand still, and with all the supermarkets around we need to make it an attraction to welcome people into the town again.The only other way is sell up and My family have been here for over 80 years, so with caution I will go forward.
Britcliff did admit though that they never claimed to be good managers running the Market and on that we agree.

WillowTheWhisp · 12-10-2004, 18:36

Hi Baconman. Thanks very much for the report. My initial reaction is that investors will expect some kind of return on their investment - where would this be expected to come from?

Baconman · 12-10-2004, 18:44

We were informed that the council will be paying them back from a portion of the revenue from the tennents. Hence my rent rise comment

Acrylic-bob · 12-10-2004, 20:26

Thanks for the feedback from the meeting Baconman. Personally I would not trust one word that the council says. They are up to summat! I agree with willow, anyone considering investing would be unlikley to do it from the goodness of their heart. They will want a return on the investment of at least double the base lending rate, otherwise what is the point, might as well keep it on the stock market. Who will be squeezed to produce this return I will leave you to work out.

Darby · 13-10-2004, 06:27

Thanks Baconman. A-Bob is probably right on his assumptions. I would not trust HBC one bit.

I also agree with you that the Market Hall needs improvements and capital investment, but by attempting to get a sort of partnership is a side-step into being redeveloped or taken-over completely. It use to have stalls upstairs when I woz a kid, there must be some way of extending the upper level as well.

If rents were raised to such an extent that a lot of traders had to move out, the investing company could claim that it was operating at a loss and close it down or turn it into something completely different (say a nightclub? Arena? something that would make quick money?). What is needed is for HBC to keep their nasty hands off the Market Hall.

Is there a Preservation order on it? A Listed Building or so? Something that would assure its continuation as a trading hall would be essential before any joint venture is made.

As you already say...not until it's written in stone!

I love the Market Hall...been going in it since I was a little kid. My auntie Ruby worked on Trickets Ice Cream Stall for 40 years.....It is Accrington....Let's not loose it!!

WillowTheWhisp · 13-10-2004, 07:22

I have a feeling that if the upper level were to have stalls nowadays there would probably have to be a lift for disabled access.

Just imagine - if some of the stalls were upstairs there could be room downstairs for the (ex)Arndale Clock! Now that could solve two problems in one.

I'd hate to see the indoor market go the way of the outdoor stalls. I feel sorry for the outdoor stallholders these days because it's not half as user friendly as the previous covered market which had wider aisles and more protection from the elements. It's only going to get worse as Winter sets in too.

knowsthescore · 13-10-2004, 09:17

but also. were will the fish market go? its the best. i think if this is to happen we must act fast we cant let our heritage go to the pockets of britcliffe. this is a disgrace everybody, get involved now.

Acrylic-bob · 13-10-2004, 10:38

>>If rents were raised to such an extent that a lot of traders had to move out, the investing company could claim that it was operating at a loss and close it down or turn it into something completely different (say a nightclub? Arena? something that would make quick money?).<<

HBC's response to falling rental revenues is one of the main reasons that the old outdoor market failed so spectacularly. The reason there were, and still are, empty stalls on the market is, plainly and simply, that the rents are too high. Further increases in site rents to generate profit for an investment company will kill the Market Hall altogether. I would have thought that a full Market Hall paying reasonable rents was preferable to a half empty one paying exhorbitant rents. Cheap site rentals would have traders clamouring to get a space. More traders = more choice = more customers. And hey presto! the market comes back to life!

If we can see this, and the traders can see this, why can HBC not see this?

Darby · 13-10-2004, 13:15

Quote:

A-Bob "If we can see this, and the traders can see this, why can HBC not see this?"

Perhaps they do see it, but have a hidden agenda! I'm absolutely sure it's a plot to raise more income for HBC. Just what are the other councillors doing? Nothing I suppose!

What is needed is to get Rix and Britcliffe to put their heads on the line!!! Better still.... just sack 'em!!

WillowTheWhisp · 13-10-2004, 16:33

Turnover/supply and demand/profit margins - It's just the simple rules of economics but maybe it's expecting a lot of Messrs Rix and Britcliffe to understand economics - with a financial deficit like HBC has.

Tealeaf · 13-10-2004, 16:47

What's the financial effect of Britcliffe's scheme as far as the market hall tenants are concerned? Here's a back-of-an-envelope calculation that the accountants on here may wish to comment on. I know there's umpteen ways of calculating an ROI, so I'll keep it as simple as possible

Assuming that the repairs and upgrade of the building will cost £1m, depreciated straight line over 10 years, that there is a seperate management fee of say, net £100K and that the management co are looking for a 15% ROI and assuming that there are 30 tenants within the market hall.

Management co will be looking to recover the initial investment by increasing total rental income by £115K per annum; in addition, it will seek to pass on the net management fee of £100K per annum. Total additional rent recoverable from tenants, per annum, £215K. Average increase of rent per annum, 215/30 = £7,166pds per market stall.

Obviously, there are alot of simple assumptions here...the market stalls are all different in size, the capital upgrade cost may be £500,000 or it may be £5m, the depreciation may be over 7 years or over 25years......any comments, anyone?