Bet Bagpuss is legless this afternoon

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by shakermaker

Not at all. In my opinion the officials who have helped to create such staggering trends buck under the pressure of big games. You don't get bigger games in English domestic football than those at Old Trafford.
I think the fans get to referees, as do big characters on the field (Roy Keane being a major perpetrator of the past) and off (Ferguson & Co.'s touchline antics).
To send off Vidic and give a penalty against United took a level-head and a massive pair. Fair play to whoever the ref was.

You are judging referees by your own standards.

The top referees have got to be top referees because they do the job properly and to the best of their ability and are not swayed by the occasion. To imply otherwise, especially when you are not a referee, is to cast a slur on their integrity.

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by jaysay

The Ref was Alan Wiley shaker, he had a number of crucial decisions to make on Saturday and got them all spot on, if only every Ref did that, but unfortunately some are intimidated by the atmosphere and bottle it, Howard Webb was a prime example only a fortnight ago

You, like most people, are judging the referees performance from the comfort of your armchair or sidelines with the aid of replays. Your opinion is biased in favour of the team that you support and you were not a referee – were you?

So quite frankly all those people saying that the referee got it wrong are talking out of their backsides.

[Mancie]

Originally Posted by cashman

that comment of fergies is one of the reasons most neutrals despise Man Utd.

Most "neutrals" are not neutral because they support one team or another...when fans stop hating United I'll start worrying!

[lancsdave]

Originally Posted by jambutty

You are judging referees by your own standards.

The top referees have got to be top referees because they do the job properly and to the best of their ability and are not swayed by the occasion. To imply otherwise, especially when you are not a referee, is to cast a slur on their integrity.

As in all walks of life some people get to the top because of who they know, not what they know.

[Mancie]

Originally Posted by jaysay

The Ref was Alan Wiley shaker, he had a number of crucial decisions to make on Saturday and got them all spot on, if only every Ref did that, but unfortunately some are intimidated by the atmosphere and bottle it, Howard Webb was a prime example only a fortnight ago

Heard this sort of rubbish for years...in the next breath bods will start on the other dig that Old Trafford has no atmosphere!....as Jambutty pointed out the Refs are now proffesionals, some are better than others but if any "bottle it" or show bias they can be brought to book (no pun).

[shakermaker]

Originally Posted by jambutty

You are judging referees by your own standards.

The top referees have got to be top referees because they do the job properly and to the best of their ability and are not swayed by the occasion. To imply otherwise, especially when you are not a referee, is to cast a slur on their integrity.

My opinion on the issue of fairness (or lack of it) at Old Trafford stems from the trends of statistics set by the referees. There is an irrefutable trend that shows how decisions are more likely to go in favour of Manchester United when they play at home. You suggest that this phenomena is down to the attitude of the opposition team and their subsequent behaviour, and I see absolutely zero logic in that. Take Pedro Mendes' goal for Tottenham that Mark Clattenburg disallowed even though it was a yard behind the goal line. How was that anything but a humongous error from the referee in favour of Manchester United? This is not an isolated incident as you know.
Considering the wealth of similar examples, I can't think of another explanation for the trend except the high probability of referees bucking under the pressure of the big games.

[churchman phil]

I agree with some of the comments about refs. I think the crowd can (and do!) sway decisions in favour of the home team. The thing is that the bigger the team is, the bigger the margin of decisions for that team. It isn't a question of cheating or anything (on the refs part) as we know that the ref can't see everything but rather that if he has a single ounce of doubt the voice of the crowd will play a part in his decision.
eg. Ewood's capacity is half that of Old Trafford (and usually only two thirds full!) so the noise volume of the crowd in the main part is much lower thus having a lower impact on any marginal decisions - regardless of the ref and/or his integrity.
Fans will always be wanting consistancy in decisions but the success of some teams makes that nigh on impossible. Those fans of the lower teams will always feel more aggrieved when playing the big boys away due to fan influence on marginal reffing decisions.
I'll get back in the shadows now....

[derekgas]

I dont see this defeat as disasterous, a game in hand and 4 points clear, if united carry on as usual and keep winning, then there wont be a problem, as for saturdays game, 10 corners against 2, more possession, (united just didnt convert thier chances, Liverpool did) vidic, ferdinand and rooney all poor on the day, the general passing was way off the norm, it was a bad day at the office, and the better finishers won, the scoreline did belie the true game, and it will be business as usual very soon, Ferguson will make sure of it.

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by shakermaker

My opinion on the issue of fairness (or lack of it) at Old Trafford stems from the trends of statistics set by the referees. There is an irrefutable trend that shows how decisions are more likely to go in favour of Manchester United when they play at home. You suggest that this phenomena is down to the attitude of the opposition team and their subsequent behaviour, and I see absolutely zero logic in that. Take Pedro Mendes' goal for Tottenham that Mark Clattenburg disallowed even though it was a yard behind the goal line. How was that anything but a humongous error from the referee in favour of Manchester United? This is not an isolated incident as you know.
Considering the wealth of similar examples, I can't think of another explanation for the trend except the high probability of referees bucking under the pressure of the big games.

This irrefutable trend is based on what the spectators see and how they think the incident should have been judged. I doubt if one of them was a referee and in any case they see things from a different angle. It all boils down to what the referee actually sees and there is no one on this planet who can corroborate what he sees. They can only guess and that is nowhere near good enough to make a case.

A ball over the goal line can look different from different angles. To be certain you have to be either on the goal line or behind it. Viewed from the pitch side it could look not completely over the line and the law is that all of the ball has to be past all of the line. I would also remind you that the actual line is still part of the playing pitch.

All your wealth of examples is based on what the spectators see and that is more often than not, not the reality.

[shakermaker]

I do agree that the majority of criticism aimed at referees is biased rubbish. However I contest that the trend of unfairness at Old Trafford is based entirely upon spectator opinion, as camera footage we see after the game makes hard facts. This is especially true in Manchester United's case, as they are lucky enough to have their every action analysed by the Andy Grays of this world. Once camera footage clears the situation up we know whether the referee got the decision right or wrong. The facts make the trend.

Also, there isn't really a case for the referees having a different angle anymore, as modern cameras and CG replays can imitate their view with precision. This was shown on the most recent episode of MoTD, to see whether the linesman made the right call.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Mancie

Most "neutrals" are not neutral because they support one team or another...when fans stop hating United I'll start worrying!

disagree mancie, whilst they do support one team or another, myself n mates of that era had great respect fer liverpool when they were kings of the castle, perhaps because managers like "Shankley n Paisley were well respected throughout football (outside of manchester) only time we wanted liverpool to lose was when they played us.

[Bagpuss]

Originally Posted by Mancie

Most "neutrals" are not neutral because they support one team or another...when fans stop hating United I'll start worrying!

I don't hate Man Utd I just pity them, 4-1

[lancsdave]

Originally Posted by jambutty

All your wealth of examples is based on what the spectators see and that is more often than not, not the reality.

Not to mention the fact that most spectators don't even know the laws of the game.

[Mancie]

Originally Posted by Bagpuss

Mr Ferguson kiss my arse.

the only arse kissing will be done by Benitez trying to save his job if Pool end up with nothing this season.

[Mancie]

Originally Posted by cashman

disagree mancie, whilst they do support one team or another, myself n mates of that era had great respect fer liverpool when they were kings of the castle, perhaps because managers like "Shankley n Paisley were well respected throughout football (outside of manchester) only time we wanted liverpool to lose was when they played us.

Well Cashy if you despise United then you ain't neutral are you!