Bet Bagpuss is legless this afternoon

[Mancie]

We are Man Utd my son..and we ain't had our dinner!

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by shakermaker

I do agree that the majority of criticism aimed at referees is biased rubbish. However I contest that the trend of unfairness at Old Trafford is based entirely upon spectator opinion, as camera footage we see after the game makes hard facts. This is especially true in Manchester United's case, as they are lucky enough to have their every action analysed by the Andy Grays of this world. Once camera footage clears the situation up we know whether the referee got the decision right or wrong. The facts make the trend.

Also, there isn't really a case for the referees having a different angle anymore, as modern cameras and CG replays can imitate their view with precision. This was shown on the most recent episode of MoTD, to see whether the linesman made the right call.

Like all people who continue to perpetuate this myth of refs tending to favour Man U at Old Trafford, you still cling to TV replays to prove the point. And of course you all conveniently forget that the ref does not have the benefit of replays and has to make his decision instantly on what he sees at the time. And that is the crux of the matter – what the ref sees. Not one single person in the stadium can tell you what the ref can see. The best that they can do is to tell you what they THINK the ref SHOULD HAVE SEEN and that is usually biased depending on which team you support.

You, on the terraces, might see the defender tug at the opposing player’s shirt but if the ref’s view is obscured by one of the players involved and he cannot see it, he cannot blow for a foul.

Refs will make mistakes because they are human and humans make mistakes. However the number of times that the refs make a mistake is far outweighed by the number of times they got it right.

Heck, there are times when the two TV pundits don’t agree after numerous replays, so what chance has the much maligned referee got?

The facts, as you call them, are not as the ref sees things but as the spectator sees things and those are totally different facts.

Clever as it is the GC replays are only of a snapshot in time. Even then it doesn’t show what the ref might have seen. To do that the camera would have to on the ref’s head. One day it may show the whole incident in real time from a different angle. But that day is not here yet.

By the way it isn’t just Man U who has the match analysed by the TV pundits. Every match that is televised has TV pundits spouting their piece.

[Mancie]

Originally Posted by shakermaker

I do agree that the majority of criticism aimed at referees is biased rubbish. However I contest that the trend of unfairness at Old Trafford is based entirely upon spectator opinion, as camera footage we see after the game makes hard facts. This is especially true in Manchester United's case, as they are lucky enough to have their every action analysed by the Andy Grays of this world. Once camera footage clears the situation up we know whether the referee got the decision right or wrong. The facts make the trend.

Also, there isn't really a case for the referees having a different angle anymore, as modern cameras and CG replays can imitate their view with precision. This was shown on the most recent episode of MoTD, to see whether the linesman made the right call.

and so the future is Andy Gray sorting out the results? no thanks mate.. if it's a toss up I'll stick with the Refs.. bad or good.

[Mancie]

you nutters

[Mancie]

here's one for Benitez.. he's had five years..he's brain hurts alot

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Mancie

Heard this sort of rubbish for years...in the next breath bods will start on the other dig that Old Trafford has no atmosphere!....as Jambutty pointed out the Refs are now proffesionals, some are better than others but if any "bottle it" or show bias they can be brought to book (no pun).

I remember the words that Mark Hughes said in an interview, He said when you play for United you think all this moaning about refs is all sower grapes from the opposition supporters and management, its not until your with another team that you start to realise just how true those complaints are

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Mancie

We are Man Utd my son..and we ain't had our dinner!

Give or quoting Jack Reagan Mancie

[Mancie]

Yeah Jaysay..the closet scouser (edit) and Tory to boot ..now it can't get any worse.. oh yeah qouting stuff from the manager of Man City..behave!

[shakermaker]

Originally Posted by jambutty

You, on the terraces, might see the defender tug at the opposing player’s shirt but if the ref’s view is obscured by one of the players involved and he cannot see it, he cannot blow for a foul.

Referees are trained to be in the right place at the right time. Their decisions shouldn't be under debate because of a restricted view. Most of the time they are in the right position. This point about the referee's view and subsequent decisions being impossible to judge is unacceptable. There has been a multitude of mistakes made by the referee from a perfectly good position, which the TV camera can, and DOES pick up!

I spot a dead end there. I know... riddle me this...

How does a referee's assessor mark the performance of the man in black? He watches the game through... you guessed it... a TV monitor. If camera angles are so darn useless, and offer us no true perception of how right or wrong referees' individual decisions are, then why on earth do the FA use this method to keep on top of their employees on the field?

Originally Posted by jambutty

One day it may show the whole incident in real time from a different angle. But that day is not here yet.

I must have been travelling intime the past few weekends, just about the time Match of the Day comes on. Just this weekend gone, a camera angle was manipulated in to a CG replay and the sequence was replayed through the angle of the linesman. It's clever, but simple, and only about as futuristic as Space 1999.

All of this is bordering on the academic.

I have not argued that referees are crooked. It is only my opinion that the refs buck under pressure of big games. God knows what goes on. But there is a trend at Old Trafford that sees Manchester United more likely to see decisions go their way. The hard facts of the amount of free kicks, penalties and cards given against United at Old Trafford create that trend. It is certainly not a myth.

[churchman phil]

Think your up against it Shakermaker - some people can't see the woods for the trees due to their own self beliefs and bias attitudes.

[lancsdave]

Originally Posted by shakermaker

Referees are trained to be in the right place at the right time.


Not sure thats quite how it works. I would use the word advised rather than trained. You have to have some natural ability to realise positioning issues.

[/quote]
How does a referee's assessor mark the performance of the man in black? He watches the game through... you guessed it... a TV monitor.
[/quote]

Maybe in the Premier league but I doubt it goes further down the pyramid than that

[jambutty]

Training a referee to be in the right place at the right time is no guarantee that he will be shakermaker. But who is to decide which is the right place? There are 22 other people on the pitch and any one could block his view at any time. Indeed I could argue that some players could be doing this deliberately. Then there is the long ball up field. Only Superman could keep up with that and refs are not superman.

“How does a referee's assessor mark the performance of the man in black? He watches the game through... you guessed it... a TV monitor.” Does he?

The TV cameras follow the action and the action is where the ball is. The cameras do not follow the referee so to rely purely on the TV to assess a ref’s performance is wrong. In fact the assessor will watch the match and turn to the TV if required. Next time that you watch a match on telly try and take note how often you see the referee in shot.

Some cameras do take a broader view for the purpose of analysis after the match and replays.

Professional referees do a difficult job to the best of their ability and to suggest that someone with over 10 years experience at the top will buckle from fan or player power, is casting a major slur on the ref.

On the very few occasions that I have seen the CG it has always been a snapshot in time and not a period of motion. And that makes it inconclusive.

The only bias here churchman phil is from those who continue to perpetrate the myth that Man U are favoured by the ref at Old Trafford.

[shakermaker]

Originally Posted by jambutty

Professional referees do a difficult job to the best of their ability and to suggest that someone with over 10 years experience at the top will buckle from fan or player power, is casting a major slur on the ref.

Is it? After all, as you said, they're only human. With over fifty-thousand United fans calling for your blood, I don't suppose any amount of experience would help there.

Originally Posted by jambutty

The only bias here churchman phil is from those who continue to perpetrate the myth that Man U are favoured by the ref at Old Trafford.

For the record, I don't believe that the refs are crooked or biased. There is a trend of statistics that show how Manchester United are more likely to have a decision go in their favour when playing at home. My opinion on the reasons for that trend is that some refs are likely to buck under pressure from fans and/or big characters on and off the field.

[churchman phil]

Originally Posted by jambutty

The only bias here churchman phil is from those who continue to perpetrate the myth that Man U are favoured by the ref at Old Trafford.

If you actually read my earlier post I stated top premiership sides - PLURAL. Ergo it is not a go at just Man U being favoured but a general observation. Shakermaker is strictly correct - the higher up the footballing ladder you go the more decisions are likely to go for you.
As a matter of recourse JB - are you or have you ever been a pro/am referee??

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by churchman phil

If you actually read my earlier post I stated top premiership sides - PLURAL. Ergo it is not a go at just Man U being favoured but a general observation. Shakermaker is strictly correct - the higher up the footballing ladder you go the more decisions are likely to go for you.
As a matter of recourse JB - are you or have you ever been a pro/am referee??

Quite right too churchman, a prime example was Arsenals winning goal in their match with Hull City last night, it was an absolute joke, but you can bet anything you want if it had been at the other end it would have been chalked off