R & B and dance music

[Gobbiner17]

Over at this post, Wynonie said

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

You know as well as I do that there's a huge difference between R&B and Rhythm & Blues. Anyway, you're not fooling me for one minute! I know you couldn't possibly like unmitigated junk like that!

I've also been disbelieved a couple of other times recently too, but that's OK, I don't mind being unbelievable! Yes, I know, that was an unbelievably bad joke too. But to get to the point.

I haven't listened to R & B since the 60s, except for what's come on TV, the juke box or radio so I probably don't know the difference between R & B and Rhythm & Blues - I always thought they were the same thing. I've heard stuff they call R & B from 90s onwards which I'd call urban soul because it isn't much like the R & B that Wynonie puts on here. Is this the difference you are referring too, Wynonie, or something else?

As for the 'unmitigated junk' I couldn't possibly like - well, I suppose I should thank you for crediting me with 'infinite good taste', but I happen to like that kind of dance music a lot. I was surprised by such a strong reaction, although when I posted it I guessed that some would not like it, hence I mentioned that. However it has everthing R & B has but in different measure. It has the repetitive beat that you get hooked on, but more so than R & B, it has soulful singing but sampled and not as forward in the mix as R & B, it stirs the emotions (but I don't mean the ones you got, W )

OK, so it's not played on 'real instruments' in 'real time' by 'real musicians' but before you get over-critical of that, note that many of these musicians do play it all live when they are touring and there is a real art to mixing and twiddling knobs. I say if the end result is great then does it matter if they are not 'real musicians'? I would also say critics should ask themselves if they could also create tunes/rhythms/melodies like the one I posted and have they ever tried? If they can answer Yes then fair enough, it's a good job we're not all the same.

Anyway, if anybody wants to debate it I'm willing to. If not and you still think I'm unbelievable, then thanks

[Margaret Pilkington]

Well, I had a listen and I have to say that it doesn't float my boat.
Music is very subjective. It awakens all kinds of emotions in us.......in a similar way that smells do.(ask any ICU nurse......bringing patients out of a coma...play their favourite music) I smell hyacinths and I am back in Amsterdam in 1967.........I hear a particular piece of violin music and I am 6 years old listening to my father playing the violin......The Beatles, they take me back to my teen years( I thought Paul was a dream boat).
I have very wide tastes in music. I am not fond of motown...it never really did anything for me way back then and it just grates on my nerves when I hear it now. I don't like rap or hiphop....it isn't really music to me
I like opera, and the popular classics...but I also like some of the current music...Elbow and Adele being my current favourites.
I am not sure if this is the kind of thing you were looking for Gobbiner.......but that is my contribution.

[Gobbiner17]

Like you, Margaret, I like all kinds of music. Also my musical tastes change. I liked some hip-hop in the 80's with conscious lyrics that you could understand but it really turns me off nowadays. I never used to like dub reggae but then one day I just fell in love with the simplicity of the rhythms and have loved it ever since.

[Margaret Pilkington]

I like my music to be melodic...and if possible, to have words that mean something.

[Wynonie Harris]

R&B is a catchall term which covers any music that is popular with black American audiences and has been in use since the late 40's. It was originally short for rhythm & blues because that's what it was - basic 12-bar blues, but revved up with honking saxes, pounding pianos and a strong backbeat. Eventually white Americans nicked it and gave it a new name - rock'n'roll. Then came soul which again was called rhythm & blues but more so in America. Eventually as the years have gone by all the feeling, emotion and natural verve have been bled out of the music until you have the bland, gutless, antiseptic muzak that is modern R&B. Nobody even knows what the term stands for now, as there's certainly no blues in this neutered, shallow, colourless sound.

I genuinely did think you were winding us up when you posted that pile of junk as you appeared to have pretty good taste previously. I certainly can't detect any emotion in it - it sounds like a metronome, accompanied by various "found sounds" from the BBC Special Effects Library. Any emotion that the brief snatches of vocal might have conveyed are effectively drowned out by the barrage of burbling, beeping electronic noises.

And yes, it does matter whether or not music is played by real musicians in real time, instead of being a mad scientist's concotion of various tracks from here, there and everywhere. Musicians playing together vibe and react with each other to create a special ambience that manufactured sounds could never match. Just listen to that Billie Holiday track you posted with the jazz guys playing behind her and say it isn't so. That's why REAL rhythm & blues bands like Roomful of Blues, Sharon Jones & The Dapp Kings and Eli "Paperboy" Reed & The True Loves insist on recording their music this way.

I'm sure there'll be someone along to back you up on your allegiance to phoney, manufactured dance music (once they get in from whichever acid house rave they've been to) but the REAL music connoisseurs on Accyweb know where I'm coming from!

[Gobbiner17]

Thanks for the information about R&B, Wyn. You are very passionate about it and I am grateful for the musical examples that you post and I must check out the other names you mentioned. I agree with you that real musicians in real time react with each other in special ways to create something unique and that one or two men (it is very male dominated) will not have the same interactions as 4, 5, 6 or more, especially if it is recorded one instrument at a time. I also share your dislike of 'antiseptic muzak' and am aware of how the music industry steals from the originators, even the name 'R&B' in this case, and package their watered-down derivatives as the best thing around and get away with it through clever marketing and control of much of the mass media.

To say I am an ally of phoney, manufactured dance music, however, shows your limited knowledge of the genre called house music. No doubt the stuff you hear on TV and radio is mostly phoney and manufactured by music industry maffia who operate in every area of music. Quite possibly the musicians who make good house music have been influenced to some extent by this phoney stuff because there is so much exposure to it, but their real influences come from records played in clubs never heard on mainstream media, and also nowadays from the internet. Even acid house raves have been phoney since the late 80s taken over by gangsters and money makers, but lovers of good house music know the real from the fake just as much as you do.

As for emotion, I think you will agree that there has to be empathy by the listener to appreciate what the performer is trying to express. I think you will also agree with Margaret about how certain sounds, such as a violin, can stir up fond and strong memories. Well, in my opinion that's how house music works - the audience is 'up for it' just as you were when you were a teenager on a night out, so the joyful feelings are already in the audience and the music helps these go deeper. Certain drum beats and sounds trigger memories of deeper feelings, as do the synths when they come in, and the snatches of vocals etc. Discerning listeners detect subtle differences in the 'found sounds' as you call them and simply love these superb sounds being repeated over and over again. In many cases the interplay of rhythms works to take you on a journey into your emotions, whereas with your rhythm & blues it is usually the vocalist who takes you whilst the rhythms don't really go anywhere (perhaps you have examples to prove otherwise?)

I could say rhythm and blues is manufactured too, after all the same rhythms and the same blues are to be found on many tracks, so you could even say it is formula music. But I won't say that because the more I listen to it the more I can appreciate it and it comes for 'way down deep in our soul'. Believe it or not, good house music also comes from the same place.

[Margaret Pilkington]

The drum beats that you mention do invoke primeval memories....they almost replicate the sounds that were listened to in our mothers womb....these sounds were reliable, rhythmic, hypnotic even...which is why they continue to hold us in their sway.
But I don't like house music

[Wynonie Harris]

Phoney, manufactured, plastic music made with synthesisers and a variety of electronic noises is phoney whether it's mainstream or underground - makes no difference. As for its popularity with rave-going audiences, that makes no difference to its lack of quality either. You can always find plenty of people to lap up junk - the state of prime time TV proves that.

As for proper rhythm & blues being formulaic, of course it was. Wynonie Harris wasn't out to make great art in the 50's - he wanted to make lots of that green stuff to blow on women, Cadillacs, Johnnie Walker Red Label and high living. The same with Wilson Pickett in the 60's. But that doesn't matter because along the way they made some great records which expressed the sheer joy of living and sometimes the sadder side too. You can never do that with the artificial sounds of house whether it's underground, overground or up a gumtree.

Jukebox regulars like me, Cashy, Al Gilmartin, Steeljack and others still listen to and love records we first heard 40-45 years ago, because they've stood the test of time. Today's rave/club goers won't be doing the same 40 years from now, because the records they listen to are disposable trash which will be viewed as a musical abberation in years to come.

But worry not, Gobbiner, help is at hand. We are going to guide you in the ways of righteousness on the true path to musical nirvana and one day you will see the light and take all your electronic beep records down to Oxfam. Your musical re-education starts here!

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Phoney, manufactured, plastic music made with synthesisers and a variety of electronic noises is phoney whether it's mainstream or underground - makes no difference. As for its popularity with rave-going audiences, that makes no difference to its lack of quality either. You can always find plenty of people to lap up junk - the state of prime time TV proves that.

As for proper rhythm & blues being formulaic, of course it was. Wynonie Harris wasn't out to make great art in the 50's - he wanted to make lots of that green stuff to blow on women, Cadillacs, Johnnie Walker Red Label and high living. The same with Wilson Pickett in the 60's. But that doesn't matter because along the way they made some great records which expressed the sheer joy of living and sometimes the sadder side too. You can never do that with the artificial sounds of house whether it's underground, overground or up a gumtree.

Jukebox regulars like me, Cashy, Al Gilmartin, Steeljack and others still listen to and love records we first heard 40-45 years ago, because they've stood the test of time. Today's rave/club goers won't be doing the same 40 years from now, because the records they listen to are disposable trash which will be viewed as a musical abberation in years to come.

But worry not, Gobbiner, help is at hand. We are going to guide you in the ways of righteousness on the true path to musical nirvana and one day you will see the light and take all your electronic beep records down to Oxfam. Your musical re-education starts here!

To be honest Wyn the only music I have is from the 60s and 70s with the odd 80s, but modernday no thanks

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by jaysay

To be honest Wyn the only music I have is from the 60s and 70s with the odd 80s, but modernday no thanks

Of course you don't have modern day music. Who in their right mind does? All modern music is crap. Everyone with the most tenous grasp on reality knows that!

[Gobbiner17]

Now it's my turn not to believe you, Wyn!

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by Gobbiner17

Now it's my turn not to believe you, Wyn!

You probably don't at the moment, Gobbiner, but you are still a lost spirit wandering in a wilderness of electronic beeps and sampled click tracks.

Worry not, dear boy, for we are about to direct you towards a whole new musical paradise that will sooth your soul and enhance your wellbeing in ways you never thought possible!

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Of course you don't have modern day music. Who in their right mind does? All modern music is crap. Everyone with the most tenous grasp on reality knows that!

well i certainly aint got NO modern day stuff n sure as hell don't want any. though i do listen occasionally to new artists/groups n then i can honestly slag em.

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by cashman

well i certainly aint got NO modern day stuff n sure as hell don't want any. though i do listen occasionally to new artists/groups n then i can honestly slag em.

Have a listen to what Gobbiner posted on the jukebox thread. Complete and utter unmitigated crap that offends the ears of any serious musical connoisseur. Every copy of this record and others like it should be trampled upon, smashed into a thousand pieces and thrown to the very pits of the deepest, darkest mineshaft.

What do you mean, it's a download?

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Have a listen to what Gobbiner posted on the jukebox thread. Complete and utter unmitigated crap that offends the ears of any serious musical connoisseur. Every copy of this record and others like it should be trampled upon, smashed into a thousand pieces and thrown to the very pits of the deepest, darkest mineshaft.

What do you mean, it's a download?

i did listen to it, n decided not to comment cos it wasn't in the oer 18s.