Stanley v York. - Page 5

Chewbacca · 22-03-2015, 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisr

I don't have cronies, My views are my own that I have observed with my own eyes from a good vantage point. I used to follow Stanley home and away for the main part of the 90s so I am not a newbie. The club fan base is shrinking weekly, notice how empty the Clayton end is. I would respectfully suggest you remove the rose coloured specs and see what is going on. If you really wanted to help the club then I suggest you join the supporters club and volunteer to help out a bit. or I am afraid the club won't last too much longer on the gates we are getting. A new manager may have new contacts, ideas,strategies, I am afraid we are at that point now where all suggestions need to be considered.

Who do you suggest as a new manager? Charlton Athletic had fans like you in the Premier League moaning about Curbishley, some fans don't realise when a club is over achieving.

Who do you want in?

baldy · 23-03-2015, 02:59

Its not a new manager the club needs, its new directors who have money to put into the Football Club, Yes the football hasn't been great at times this season but that is bound to happen with any manager at some point!

To blame Coleman fully for the falling attendances is narrow minded to me, Fans don't come because they cant afford to come on, I know a few people who used to come every week but cant because of the price, Is that Coleys fault? Fans don't come because the facilities ain't great for the price we have to charge to try and even keep the club afloat! is that Coleys fault?

What are the directors doing to attract new investors, if anything?

choirboy · 23-03-2015, 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redraine

I agree with most of what you say, Choirboy, but no combativeness in midfield? Come on, you had better not let Joyce and Proccy hear you saying that! I think your dislike of Luke Joyce is clouding your judgement. He is an absolute dynamo in midfield, makes more ball winning tackles than any other of our players and is the fulcrum of most of our attacks. No, in my opinion, our biggest failing is in the last quarter of the field where we time and again waste possession in and around the box. How many times did we test the York keeper yesterday in spite of all our pressing? I can't think of one shot he had to save. From what I have seen Bruna has the quality to unlock defences but never gets the nod. Maybe he doesn't understand Scouse? McCarten too isn't afraid to run at defenders with real venom and finish, but giving him only 3 minutes on the pitch is ludicrous.

Mike, I do not dislike Luke Joyce. I just don't think he is as good a player as you think.
It is precisely our lack of comativeness in midfield which exposes our back line far too many times during a match and why we give so many goals away. Luke defends far too deep and Procky is not the player that he used to be. Also neither contribute much going forward. How many goals have they scored between this season and in previous seasons? I would expect my best midfield players to be scoring seven or eight goals a season. The lack of threat 'up front' on saturday was because of a lack of support and creativity from midfield. Also because our 'wingers' are being asked to come from far too deep as they are asked to play as 'wing backs'.
You know that my favourite move is for midfield players to get the ball to the wingers who then get to the 'goal line' and then pull the ball back towards the penalty spot, where the midfield players have followed up in support of our front players. Unstoppable! We have only achieved this about 3 or 4 times this season!
So often, when I watch the replay of goals against us on TV, opposing players have run straight through our midfield! Luke Joyce was beaten in a heading duel and then left for pace for York's second goal on saturday by one of their players running with the ball, who then laid the ball off to their right winger, our central defence was stretched and exposed yet again.....some neat York passing .......goal against!!
It is so glaringly obvious to me that we need to 'beef' up our midfield and press a higher line. We probably need to get back to playing a regular formation with proper full backs and wingers in order to do this though.

football19 · 23-03-2015, 10:58

At last were back talking football !!
Some good points choirboy, we have missed murphys and Molly's goals from central areas,but for me we just don't get enough shots away and go sideways instead (windass excluded who shoots from 40 yards !! )

LongLostSon · 23-03-2015, 14:07

From the limited matches I can get to, I hesitate to get involved much in discussions. However, at Wycombe there were several chances for Kal to wing past the marking fullback and create havoc but intead chose to stop,turn and look for someone to pass to. This says to me that he'd been having to start from too deep and hadn't the energy for a burst of pace. Also, Mingoia (who I regard as our most likely scorer) is not allowed to operate along the oppo penalty box enough because of fetching/carrying duties. As for shots, it seems we don't get into positions for anything other than the high,wide & ugly variety. On target ratio is pathetic in the majority of matches. On the question of subs, if nothing is happening for us, then change with a couple of different style players with at least 20 mins to go. Proper full backs for me please and pace down the wings = they're on the bench !

Redraine · 23-03-2015, 14:13

Hey, Bob, I thought I might just put on my coat and walk the 300 yards up to your house for a discussion, but a) you might not be in and b) you can't interrupt me on here! You and I are never going to agree on Luke Joyce, but after every game, without fail you tell me "Joyce was defending too deep again". I usually refrain from responding as I'm sure poor Laura doesn't want to hear 2 old gits going at it hammer and tongs.
However, whenever Luke puts in one of his trademark crunching tackles and puts in a slide rule pass out to his winger, left or right for them to get to the byline in accordance to your (and mine) favourite attacking ploy, I always smile to myself about him " defending too deep". With all due respect, it's meaningless.
Footballers aren't static chess pieces, they have to follow the action, or would you rather he stations himself permanently in the opposition half? If he defends "too deep" then that's as a result of the way the formation is planned. Incidentally, I agree that 5-3-2 means our wingers are not deployed efficiently enough and wish we played with proper full backs.
Anyway, I know my footballing experience pales in to insignificance compared to yours (my school 2nd team occasional left winger, as opposed to your fully fledged Stanley reserves from the wilderness years) so maybe you can enlighten me further mate!

maccawozzagod · 23-03-2015, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by baldy

Fans don't come because they cant afford to come on,

how many season tickets did we sell? that's the starting point for crowds, add on the away fans. It would be interesting to see a list of the 'paying crowd' for each game this season.

The board quite clearly set out their stall with the pricing structure for this season and if it continues then we will continue to see crap crowds. But if the figures support the move at the end of the season then we'll just have to live with sub 1000 crowds

choirboy · 23-03-2015, 15:32

Well Mike, seeing as you are asking!

In my experience, midfield players have to be; a)combative, not only in tackling opponents but also in..... b) harrasing opponents even when drawn a bit out of position and.....c) be highly mobile in covering virtually every blade of grass on the pitch.
A winning team will 'command' the midfield, if they don't then the team is going to get pressured constantly in defence and it is only a matter of time/statistics before they succumb and cocede goals. Our midfield seem to me to play too deep and give the midfield away too much. A 4-4-2 formation is often talked about, and yes, you are correct in stating that a formation is a mobile device. eg. When attacking it becomes a 2-4-4 (in its simplest form and variation). Managers often talk about having a 'strong spine' in a winning team....a good strong goalkeeper...two strong central defenders, who don't need to roam about too much except to add weight at attacking free kicks and corners....two forwards who have the 'knack' of poaching goals...but most importantly two central midfielders who run the whole show and should cover more ground than the the other players, eg George Boyd at Burnley who records the most kilometers covered virtually every time he plays!
Earlier this season we seemed to be trying to play a '4-4-2' formation but it seemed to me to be more like a 'square' layout of players with a hole in the middle. More recently with the 3 central defenders and wing backs it has looked like a 'circlular' layout but has still had a hole in the middle! Somehow we need to pick players, or coach them how, to fill that hole, to contribute in an attacking way as well as in defence and then we might have a chance of dominating opponents and take the pressure off our central defenders. Rememeber Coley thinks that this is the best defence that he has worked with, yet we have given more goals away this season than virtually all of the teams in all divisions!
When the team is defending, the midfield players have to be able to 'slot into' the penalty box but be ready to break out quickly. When attacking they have to get quickly up the field in support of the centre forward and even get down the wings themselves in the role of a 'winger'. They should also be capable of scoring goals from shots hit from outside the penalty box and be able to poach goals when they are in the box, thus getting 7 or 8 themselves in a season. How many have our midfield scored this season?
I hope that this clarifies my tactical approach. Of course you need 'quality' players to be able to achieve this and Stanley are always going to struggle to achieve this when most of the players that we sign have struggled to maintain a place at other clubs.
It is wonderful to be a Stanley supporter and to have to fight against all the odds and not be a Man Utd or City or Chelsea fan and just have 'amazing' players bought at the drop of a hat!
Long live the survival of clubs like ours who year in and year out defy the odds!

ON STANLEY ON WITH JIMMY AND JOHN

Redraine · 23-03-2015, 19:19

Quote:-"midfield players have to be; a)combative, not only in tackling opponents but also in..... b) harassing opponents even when drawn a bit out of position and.....c) be highly mobile in covering virtually every blade of grass on the pitch."
Exactly, Bob. You have just described Luke to a tee! He must put in more kilometres than any other of our regulars, apart from Piero, maybe. Of course, in an ideal world it would be great if your defensive midfielders can score goals as well as doing the tough stuff, but your George Boyd only has 5 goals this season as against Luke's 4. What we need is a combination of Sean McConville (when he isn't having a strop), and Jimmy Ryan, but then you are talking £750,000 minimum. I still think our failings are more down to coaching than individuals, and it is unfair to continually blame Luke Joyce, who for me is twice the player he was a couple of seasons ago. If that's not good enough for you then how come he has been the first name on the team sheet for all our last 4 managers?
Can I still have a lift on Friday night, pretty please?

choirboy · 23-03-2015, 22:08

Don't forget Mike...I really do not have it in for Luke. However, he only fulfils the three criteria to something like 50% in my view. You are probably correct in stating that it is the 'coaching' or the orders to which he is playing but he and our other midfield players could be far more effective if they pressed higher up the pitch. When Luke gets the ball the play too often slows down and he either passes sideways or backwards. Procky doesn't have the guile or skill to create that much going forward and he is losing his physicality and pace these days a bit like Steve 'Stamper' Gerrard! We need midfield players who drive forward and feed true wingers who then get round the back of defenders and unlock the opposition.
I know that it was in non league days but you will remember so well the times when we had Jay Flannery doing the 'driving' and feeding wingers like Russell Payne, Rory 'Diver' Prendergast and Dean Calcutt. Glory days of attacking football with combative domination in midfield eh!

Ok for the lift on friday Mike. Pick you up at 7.15pm.
What about Good Friday? Do you fancy going to Morecambe? ....Fans coach or my car? ......your choice depending on how well you feel.

Redraine · 23-03-2015, 22:28

You say:-"Luke Joyce was beaten in a heading duel and then left for pace for York's second goal on saturday by one of their players running with the ball, who then laid the ball off to their right . winger, our central defence was stretched and exposed yet again".
Have another look at that mate. That is really unfair. Luke actually won the heading duel, but because he was defending too far up the pitch (!!!) he had no chance to get back and tackle the guy who made the run for them and who had a head start on him. There were plenty of our defenders falling over each other in the box and their final ball into the box should have been cut out, so to blame it all on Luke is frankly ridiculous. Perhaps he should have been defending deeper?!
Cheers for Friday and I'll let you know about Morecambe later. The spirit's willing, but.........

maccawozzagod · 23-03-2015, 22:34

I've long been a fan of Luke, when we had the play off run in the upsurge in form coincided with Luke getting and staying in the team. Most players of his ilk are there to mop up loose balls and nudge it sideways or backwards to a red shirt facing forwards. The vast majority of the 'ugly' midfielders excel at that but have little else to add to it. If I was being harsh I'd say that he should contribute more towards the goal tally but when you are the water carrier of a five man midfield then surely you are the last in line to have a shot or two?

baldy · 23-03-2015, 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by maccawozzagod

how many season tickets did we sell? that's the starting point for crowds, add on the away fans. It would be interesting to see a list of the 'paying crowd' for each game this season.

The board quite clearly set out their stall with the pricing structure for this season and if it continues then we will continue to see crap crowds. But if the figures support the move at the end of the season then we'll just have to live with sub 1000 crowds

Didn't they release the season ticket early bird (£200) prices before they released the £20 pay on the day prices? By that point the season ticket prices had gone up to £250.

Would have been better to release the early bird season ticket prices at the same time as the pay on the gate prices, could have swung a few more to become Season Ticket holders!

What do you suggest for next season? Low early bird season ticket price to attract more to buy them and keep £20 to make money off the away fans or lower the £20 walk on fee and hope more fans come!

football19 · 24-03-2015, 07:07

I am a fan of Joycy and a lot of his work goes unnoticed .
For me he's the "glue" that keeps the shape of the team and when others get caught out of position he has to make split second decisions as to stick or twist.
He has a lot more in his locker but plays for the team,hence he's first name on the team sheet.
Hes experienced and knows the game,indeed he's a qualified coach !!!,and he's tougher than people think

I would like to see him bursting forward but that's not his job in the system we are playing and he is capable of scoring from outside the area as well

lancsdave · 24-03-2015, 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by baldy

Didn't they release the season ticket early bird (£200) prices before they released the £20 pay on the day prices? By that point the season ticket prices had gone up to £250.

Would have been better to release the early bird season ticket prices at the same time as the pay on the gate prices, could have swung a few more to become Season Ticket holders!

What do you suggest for next season? Low early bird season ticket price to attract more to buy them and keep £20 to make money off the away fans or lower the £20 walk on fee and hope more fans come!

Maybe you should start this off as a new annual ( although it tends to become weekly on here

) thread. It's getting lost in a match thread