Wham Stadium

[smudgie]

Seeing as the other thread was closed , we can discuss the ground in here.

I would just like to say thanks to Maccawozzagod....... Absolutely hit the nail on the head with his post, as usual.

Great to see someone who is a realist.

[Mr T]

Not promising ( on due to IT skills) !! but I'll attempt to move the relevant posts over to this thread; now it's been started.

For those that don't know the away toilets are portacabins, but worse and smaller than those demolished on the Clayton End. They are "suitable" only for up to away attendances of up to 1000; higher than this (eg: Carlisle next game) we then bring in additional portaloos.

[Chrisr]

Copied from another post. Originally posted by Maccawasagod.

there are half a dozen different tangents being gone off onto within this thread but this post needs picking up on Chris. For one thing we absolutely are a 2nd rate 4th tier club and we thank our lucky stars for it. That's not being defeatist but its celebrating the fact that a few generous people have ploughed their small fortunes into keeping our club going. Even if we doubled our home crowds we would still be the poorest club in the division. Practically every club in the division has double our crowd and practically every club has a stadium that earns income from avenues other than the gate money and FL money

1 Portsmouth 16,682
2 Plymouth Argyle 8,988
3 Luton Town 8,047
4 Doncaster Rovers 5,412
5 Grimsby Town 5,320
6 Carlisle United 5,178
7 Notts County 4,663
8 Cambridge United 4,621
9 Leyton Orient 4,506
10 Crewe Alexandra 3,905
11 Exeter City 3,886
12 Yeovil Town 3,667
13 Colchester United 3,662
14 Hartlepool United 3,535
15 Blackpool 3,513
16 Wycombe Wanderers 3,420
17 Mansfield Town 3,369
18 Cheltenham Town 3,196
19 Stevenage 2,719
20 Newport County 2,596
21 Crawley Town 2,243
22 Barnet 1,982
23 Morecambe 1,833
24 Accrington Stanley 1,721

~You wrote in your post "where are the brains that be that can develop the image" and it was written in a sarcastic manner. I find that highly insulting to the present Chairman who is trying his damndest to make the club self sufficient. I know you took umbrage at his right hand man over the disable concessions, and that's another discussion entirely. The fact remains that we have a skeleton staff doing their utmost to develop the stadium into something remotely resembling a FL stadium.

Another post mentions the away end and the appalling facilities. Quite correct to mention it, but until we have hundreds of thousands of pounds to spend then it just sits on the list of things to do.

Andy Holt stated that the first lot of ground work HAD to go on the Clayton End and upgrading the facilities for those that may come back. TICK

He has stated that the next lot of ground work will be done this summer on redeveloping the main stand concourse. Quite what this entails is anybodies guess but I would imagine something very similar to the Clayton End. Remedial work has been done in clearing the car park and additional land to make space, and also in securing the alternative shop and office facilities to the rear of the clayton end car park. So half a TICK

It is also blatantly obvious that work has been ongoing in tidying up the Accy Endm, maybe in readiness for some work?

We have also got the Whinney Hill side ready for work to begin. Groundwork is done, plans drawn up and permissions granted. This work WOULD HAVE been done had we got promotion last season, but in not doing there was little point.

A lot of the little quibbles we have here and there are just that, little quibbles. Hopefully it means that any problems are ironed out in readiness for some sort of bigger push off the field.

The Clayton End development means that particular stand is now earning money for the first time ever. They would love the other stands to join in but we/they have to walk before they can run.

Had one of our long standing fans come in with a Euromillions jackpot behind them I'm quite sure we'd have footed the bill all in one fell swoop and the ground would be running tickety boo by now. But that didnt happen and AH has come in with finite funds that he is trying to stretch as far as possible.

It was little over 12 months ago that he took over and we have moved on immeasurably since then, but when he first sat in the Big Chair he had a 3rd tie against Man Utd to look forward to and 2 big assets in Josh and Crooksy. The money earned from those three things was earmarked to do the things that we all want doing - but never came.

I love a moan when things are hitting the fan, but for now let's just trust the big mans plan and let it pan out. My biggest criticism so far would be the failure to announce what the plan is. Firstly it helps to build hype and secure the fans belief that all is good, but secondly it helps to head off unnecessary criticism as we can see that we are heading towards the things we are complaining about.

We all know that kids are the future, and so does Andy. IF we knew that a family stand was being built on the Whinney Hill side then we'd knock off the comments as we would know it was all in hand

In answer to Maccawasagod.

I think you have picked up on several threads not belonging to me, However I never write anything sarcastically. I have fully supported every effort that Andy Holt has made and I will continue to do that. You mentioned the disagreement I had with his right hand man on disabled concessions, I have already said that ship has sailed, I don't agree with much the right hand man has said because I judge people on results and action. You have in your post been a little less than positive, You have simply extracted the problems we all know about yet you don't offer any suggestions to improve these niggles.
A complaint or criticism is a way of putting something right. Everybody knows the future of the club is in young people attending. But the reality is they are not and at the moment I see nothing to entice them, We have to change that. As for blaming the Skeleton staff we have, you will never hear me calling any one of them. Or anybody who volunteers to help the club in any way will only receive gratitude and thanks from me. You have said it all in your first paragraph about the crowd size, even if we double it we will still be the poorest club in the division. Well this is the challenge not just for the management but for every committed fan of the club to change this. Success on the field will be the biggest factor, Just as important is the match day experience. The supporters club have done a great job in bringing the fanzone to life, This needs to be built on with other ideas. We have a worldwide brand in the Accrington Stanley name and we don't seem to be building on that. I am glad that the issues have made people actually think about the club in a realist view. we all know we will never cure the problems overnight and extra income is desperately needed. Andy Holt has kept this club afloat and progressed it as quickly as is possible. He knows what is needed and what it will cost. This is where the fans can show support in helping bring more people to the ground, we can all think of possible deals for tickets and other enticements. Once people do attend the club before, during and after the match is the time we need to convince them to keep coming. We can discuss these ideas on here or another thread, It is always easy to pick faults but putting them right is a different matter. So I just hope people keep discussing and putting forward ideas that may benefit the club. You may well notice that all the tangent threads are inter connected.

[Exile on Spencer St]

Bit difficult to carry on a discussion that's on a closed thread but there were lots of good points.
I agree that away fans are vital to Stanley, and cover would offer some improvement. At Crawley (and Brizzle Rovers) there are 'temporary' canvas covers over stands, but they may be in less exposed locations.
The 'big screen' would not be particularly high on my priorities as a fan but I can understand it's main function is to generate more revenue from advertising and is, relatively, low cost (!).
I also understand the decision to postpone building the new Whinney Hill stand (don't forget, someone, to renew the planning consent after 3 years or make a start on its development, however small) but was disappointed to hear it.
I prefer standing, while I still can, but the few times I've sat in the 'main' stand I haven't found it particularly enjoyable as it's too low to get a decent view of the game. Players and other fans constantly blocking the view didn't help. The new stand would have provided a much better option, and might have been more attractive to dads/mums bringing smaller children. The little kids might have looked to the Clayton End and longed for the day they could stand in there too!

But, as others have rightly said, the miracle is that Stanley have fought their way back to become a League club, despite all the odds. As fans, however few, we are the lucky ones to be able to witness Stanley defying those odds.

[Chrisr]

Originally Posted by Exile on Spencer St

Bit difficult to carry on a discussion that's on a closed thread but there were lots of good points.
I agree that away fans are vital to Stanley, and cover would offer some improvement. At Crawley (and Brizzle Rovers) there are 'temporary' canvas covers over stands, but they may be in less exposed locations.
The 'big screen' would not be particularly high on my priorities as a fan but I can understand it's main function is to generate more revenue from advertising and is, relatively, low cost (!).
I also understand the decision to postpone building the new Whinney Hill stand (don't forget, someone, to renew the planning consent after 3 years or make a start on its development, however small) but was disappointed to hear it.
I prefer standing, while I still can, but the few times I've sat in the 'main' stand I haven't found it particularly enjoyable as it's too low to get a decent view of the game. Players and other fans constantly blocking the view didn't help. The new stand would have provided a much better option, and might have been more attractive to dads/mums bringing smaller children. The little kids might have looked to the Clayton End and longed for the day they could stand in there too!

But, as others have rightly said, the miracle is that Stanley have fought their way back to become a League club, despite all the odds. As fans, however few, we are the lucky ones to be able to witness Stanley defying those odds.

A good post from a true fan, I would ask is it possible to have free wifi in the groud and how much would it cost and would it attract enough younger people to warrant the expense. It is only a thought and may not go anywhere at the moment, But I throw it out for consideration.

[Lord Stiffupperlip]

Perhaps when we draw Man U away in tonight's FA Cup draw, do a Plymouth on them & get em back to the Wham, where Super Sean will blast a curler over De Gea's despairing dive in the 94th minute to get us into round 5, we'll have enough wonga from Sky + BBC + the 20 million transfer fee we get from Wenger for McConville, to rebuild the whole bleedin ground!
Can't wait!

[Exile on Spencer St]

Can I have a double of whatever his Lordship's drinking?

[cashman]

As the F.A.Cup 4Th Round thread was closed when it aint even been drawn yet,i shall post in this un. I tend to agree with S.M.s view of the draw and think it would be great if it worked that way,

[maccawozzagod]

Originally Posted by Chrisr

I think you have picked up on several threads not belonging to me, However I never write anything sarcastically.

lol, your right I did merge quite a few thoughts from various posts having orignally quoted you. The only bit that I wanted to quote was the bit about us acting like a 2nd rate 4th tier club when that is exactly what we are and are a long long way from not being. I wanted to highlight that even doubling the crowds would only put us on a par with the other poorest clubs, we would still have 18 or so other clubs to match or beat in order to not be a 2nd rate 4th tier club.

I also deliberately mentioned the bit about "where are the brains ..." as it did read sarcastically when coupled with what followed.

Anyway, regardless, the entire post was not in any way an attack on you and was only designed to try to bring us all down a little as it seems to me almost as though we are trying to find an excuse to moan at the club sometimes. That of course is subject to opinion and mine will differ from others.

It is good that now and again this sort of subject rears it's head and that a few people try to have objective input in how we need to progress. With a bit of hope and a fair wind sometimes these ideas will work their way back to the powers that be. The ideas themselves may frequently be fruitless but it does give them an idea as to how the fanbase may be thinking.

The one worry I have sometimes with any work that is going ahead is I wonder what sort of input is sought by the club from the fans? My personal opinion was that the Clayton End could have been done infinitely better for the same money but better effect by building all the structures as part of the exterior wall - thus creating a wind break and a far bigger canopy for shelter from the rain. I cant knock what has happened as it is a huge improvement on what was, I just felt that it lacked input from those that use the End.

The other major thing I wanted to get across was that without any kind of Official statement from the club we have little or no idea as to what the immediate future holds. I KNOW that Andy wants to encourage the kids back, I KNOW that he has heard tales of what The Clayton End was like in its Ultra pomp and would love that to return, but I also KNOW that he won 't make a big play for it until such time as the club is ready to accept an influx of new fans.

That may sound a little daft, and un-businesslike but he has a point. We debated it a couple of months ago as to whether we could take a thousand kids now. Yes is the short answer, we are physically able to accept a thousand kids for the next game but it wouldn't be the experience that it should be and the retention numbers would be awful. Done in the right manner, and at the right time the retention numbers should be magical.

I personally dont like to pester those with chairs at the club. I'll pass my thoughts in person if the opportunity arises, or I'll email it if I think it necessary or helpful - but I don't chase things up. Andy is financially invested to the club for well over a £M and that will be probably be over £2m by the end of the season, if he wants to ignore advice or help because he knows better than that is up to him and we are only customers who can choose to spend or not. We've supported the club when it was crap, we've supported it when it has threatened to not be crap, so it makes no difference to me whether we remain so or not. However, I will try to accost Mr Holt to obtain some answers to questions so that we can ascertain for ourselves where our criticisms need to be directed.

It IS FANtastic that we have people who are willing to offer their opinions, but how many of us will stand up if the call comes for volunteers to realise these opinions? Chris mentioned about questionnaires, and whilst to some this may seem like preaching to the converted, it may also offer clues as to what can be done and where. I often thought it would be prudent to hire some questionnaire folk to trawl around Accrington on a home matchday and quiz folk who AREN'T at the match.

[maccawozzagod]

a slight extra comment if I may,

The closed thread included a few comments regarding the price for the Luton match with at least two posts citing that Sunderland v Burnley was only a tenner. That particular match was played at the home ground of Sunderland who average 41,799 for league matches. Knowing that Cup games are rarely well attended by season ticket holders they did indeed drop the price to a tenner, but only 18,000 turned up - not a catastrophe in financial terms for a club that is swimming in Premier League cash but had we done that it could indeed have been problematic.

I've longed for somebody to come up with some sort of genius idea that means we aren't reliant on gate receipts. Accy is a poor area and doesn't even the luxury of at least being a town of Accringtonians anymore. It's becoming more and more of a commuter town and the loyalty of the townsfolk cannot be expected (if ever it was given). My personal problem with the pricing isn't even the fact that it's £20 - it's the fact that pricing is all over the place from season to season, and sometimes month to month. ST at £8 per game, walk on at £20 or £17 or £15, loyalty cards at ... (dunno what it even is tbh), flexi tickets, half season tickets, bus passes.

When someone asks me I want to be able to say "it is £x". I used to drink in the Oaklea until they started with happy hours, loyalty cards, discounted drink hours, 2for1 hours etc etc. I always got the impression that it would have been cheaper if I'd waited an hour, or gone an hour earlier, or took my grandparents or something.

So here is my twopennorthworth. Once the ground is developed to what it is going to be and each stand has the ability to make extra money we should be charging a flat rate for everyone. Man, woman, child, pensioner, disabled, Army Veteran, carer or Martian. That price is £7 (£161 for the season)

Here's how the prices stack up (disclaimer 1 ... I make some assumptions on ST sales as figures aren't shown anywhere) (disclaimer 2 ... I further assump that every ticket sold is a full adult price one, even though I know it isn't)

current average gate of 1700 (ish) of which around 700 are season tickets.
700 x £200 st price = £140,000
1000 x £20 gate price = £20,000 x 23 home league games = £460,000

Therefore we have a maximum (don't forget that a goodly percent of those numbers are concessions of one ilk or another) gate revenue of £600,000 from 23 league games.

So any price promotion has to achieve those figures over the year

£15? why bother, to the uncoverted it's as bad as £20 and would make no difference

£10? would need to average 2608 fans to break even. Definitely achievable but I'm not certain that as a flat rate price it would attract the kids, and it is probably there or thereabouts what Concessions are/should be paying already - they'd probably feel as though they are being victimised by not getting a reduction. Family of four for £40?

£7? would need to average 3726 to break even. A little more difficult to achieve this but that price is by far and away the cheapest in the EFL, Conference, and probably below.

Is 3726 an unrealistic target? Again I reiterate that figure is based on a maximum of everyone paying full price for their ticket or season ticket.

That figure can be further reduced by the uptake in sales everywhere else around the ground. Whatever the Clayton End is now taking can be at least doubled as the End holds at least twice as many as what currently inhabit it. Then that new figure can be tripled by having the same outlets on the away end and the main stand.

The magic solution is always a winning team. People will come to see a winning team and that is FACT. But how many can you retain? If the price is right, If the facilities are at least adequate, IF the atmosphere is great, IF the experience throws out no problems then the retention number can be almost all of them.

3726.

Have a quick think how many people you have spoke to in the past have said that it's simply too expensive now? If we all know just one unique person that we could persuade to join us on our fortnightly day out then we would practically achieve that straight away. At the current £20 we could perhaps all persuade that one person to 'give it another go' but they wouldn't be persuaded to come every single week.

So, to pre-empt the inevitable "we gave it away free and they didn't come" "we've done it for a fiver and they didn't come", I'll answer that now - Yes we gave it away free and they DID come. The official gate was around 3800 if I remember rightly but we were turning them away at the gates as we thought we were full. And the away end was (Torquay) abysmally short of sell out. For a fiver? Yes we have done it a few times for a fiver but it's a short notice event that nobody knows about other than those who are going anyway! The last £5 game was advertised on the website about 6 days beforehand. It took 2 days for it to be noticed enough to get mentioned on here. Social media sharing took place for a day or two but it's too late. Those who we are targeting for games like that are already doing whatever and aren't likely to change their plans to go to a game that is so low key as to be discounted to the great unwashed. It's hogwash to assume that because we've done it before it wont work this time.

This time we have the power of Scott Dawson to paint the towns' hoardings with large Red adverts. We have greater social media that ever before, and we have our large band of loyal followers to help distribute the new prices.

Just my opinion though :-)

[Chrisr]

A very well considered opinion I might add, This is the kind of interaction we need to have with the club and fans,, You touched on part of my question about promoting the Stanley Brand. The use of social media is woeful at stanley. it is to little to late. I don't expect the staff to have all the skills needed. But we have in our midst people who are committed fans who would lend their skills to the club free if they were encouraged. The pricing structure you covered is very close to what I was thinking, In fact you have stolen my thunder a little but you have made a considerable contribution. If you see Andy at the match you can always try and have a word, He is very approachable and will listen to all suggestions. He has not invested so much money into the club to see it fail. We as fans have our part to play to help succeed.

[maccawozzagod]

Stole your thunder? Sorry - lol

I've always advocated cheap n cheerful because that IS what we are like it or not. I've always used a fiver purely for examples sake but the figures wouldnt work at a fiver

[Dav1d]

I like your post macca, brings up a lot of ideas for the club and was a good ready but I think your 3726 average per season is unrealistic. Look at the first season in the league we wasn't getting that crowd. The club should of pounced on the new fans on that first season in the league when the media was hype and everything else but he club didn't and atttaction to go to the games for the new fans fizzled out when we wasn't winning every game. I think 2608 average per season is more realistic but again needs better advertisement on social media, papers etc. And yes the crowd did come when it was free but that's unrealistic, same as when it was £5 for the game. If people want to come than they would regardless of price £5/£10/£15/£20 but i agree it's confusing with the half tickets, loyalty cards, student cards etc. I do think once the stadium is sorted more with the stands and facilities than more people will come.

[st06nc2]

Don't see why we don't do a Crawley for one game and do a pay what you want

[cashman]

Originally Posted by st06nc2

Don't see why we don't do a Crawley for one game and do a pay what you want

That may have been a goer, if it wasn't accrington we were talking about.