Creationism versus Evolution
- Thread starter jambutty
- Start date
I think I agree with more or less everything Simon has said so far. There is no proof that man has evolved from anything else. Aren't scientists even now saying that Neanderthal man was a different species which actually went exinct?
Yes there is adaption within a species to suit a location or climate - things like ermines having white fur in winter to camouflage them in the snow. Yes dog breeders can produce different breeds of dogs or breed certain breeds of dog so that their ears get longer with successive generations but there is no chance of a dog breeder looking at his Great Danes and thinking "I fancy having a llama, I'll evolve one out of this lot." It just can't be done. Dogs are dogs and llamas are llamas. You can get lions breeding with tigers to produce ligers and tigons but you can't get tigons breeding with tigons to produce tigons. Even if you could though, they are still cats, they are still feline. You can't get them to change species.
As for how long creation took, well how long is one of God's days? A year? A thousand years? A million, a billion years?
I don't believe God makes mistakes. For some reason he wanted to create dinosaurs but I believe he got all the dinosaurs over and done with before he made man. I have no idea why.
I can understand what makes people say there can't be a God or he wouldn't let all the wickedness in the world continue - well there was a time when he didn't. He drowned everybody apart from Noah and his family and they were then instructed to start going forth and multiplying all over again, but he also made a promise to Noah that he would never destroy everything like that again. No matter how wicked humans become God will still keep that promise.
It's funny how this subject seems to be cropping up all over the place lately. Apparently there was a prog on the radio yesterday and there's been a thread on the eBay Round Table forum for a while now (it's over 1600 posts long but some of that is a bit of thread wandering) There's an interesting bit been brought up on there by someone about Sumerian clay tablets with cuniform writings which amongst other things contains references to a great deluge when nearly all the people were drowned. These clay tablets predate Genesis according the the person who posted about them. They also tell of beings from elsewhere who created humanity. The poster there refers to these beings as extra terrestrials (others have called them aliens) but couldn't they equally refer to God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ who the Bible says was there in the beginning and through him all things were made?
Yes there is adaption within a species to suit a location or climate - things like ermines having white fur in winter to camouflage them in the snow. Yes dog breeders can produce different breeds of dogs or breed certain breeds of dog so that their ears get longer with successive generations but there is no chance of a dog breeder looking at his Great Danes and thinking "I fancy having a llama, I'll evolve one out of this lot." It just can't be done. Dogs are dogs and llamas are llamas. You can get lions breeding with tigers to produce ligers and tigons but you can't get tigons breeding with tigons to produce tigons. Even if you could though, they are still cats, they are still feline. You can't get them to change species.
As for how long creation took, well how long is one of God's days? A year? A thousand years? A million, a billion years?
I don't believe God makes mistakes. For some reason he wanted to create dinosaurs but I believe he got all the dinosaurs over and done with before he made man. I have no idea why.
I can understand what makes people say there can't be a God or he wouldn't let all the wickedness in the world continue - well there was a time when he didn't. He drowned everybody apart from Noah and his family and they were then instructed to start going forth and multiplying all over again, but he also made a promise to Noah that he would never destroy everything like that again. No matter how wicked humans become God will still keep that promise.
It's funny how this subject seems to be cropping up all over the place lately. Apparently there was a prog on the radio yesterday and there's been a thread on the eBay Round Table forum for a while now (it's over 1600 posts long but some of that is a bit of thread wandering) There's an interesting bit been brought up on there by someone about Sumerian clay tablets with cuniform writings which amongst other things contains references to a great deluge when nearly all the people were drowned. These clay tablets predate Genesis according the the person who posted about them. They also tell of beings from elsewhere who created humanity. The poster there refers to these beings as extra terrestrials (others have called them aliens) but couldn't they equally refer to God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ who the Bible says was there in the beginning and through him all things were made?
This God that some people seem to think existed was an exceedingly vain person. The first three commandments are all about him.
1. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain:
3. Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.
Hang on a minute though. Weren’t Adam and Eve supposed to be perfect? Perfect people don’t tempt others to break the rules.
5. Thou shalt not kill.
Excuse me but just exactly what did this God do when he created the flood? Wasn’t all life on the planet killed by the flood created by this God except for Noah, his wife, their children and their wives and not forgetting all animals etc? Then there is the story of the Egyptians chasing the Israelites and the parting of the seas to drown the Egyptian army.
Didn’t God tell the Israelites to attack and take over Jericho and kill the inhabitants as the first of many towns?
Oh! I see! It’s a case of do as I say, not as I do.
Religion evolved to try and wrest control from the ruling classes. It is nothing more than a means of controlling the population. In some countries Islam has a stronger hold over the people than the government.
If people want to believe in some mystical being and it gives them some degree of comfort then that is fine by me but don’t even bother trying to convert me. More importantly stop brainwashing children into your beliefs before they are old enough to evaluate things for themselves.
1. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain:
3. Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.
Accepting for a moment that there is a God, he (if it was a he) made three mistakes. One was called Adam, one called Eve and giving them a free will to do as they chose yet forbade them to eat the fruit off one particular tree. So Eve tempted Adam to sample the fruit and being a forgiving God they got banished and condemned the whole of humanity to a life of toil. Whatever happened to forgiveness? So it was a question of we can do what you like just as long as we follow his rules.
Hang on a minute though. Weren’t Adam and Eve supposed to be perfect? Perfect people don’t tempt others to break the rules.
5. Thou shalt not kill.
Excuse me but just exactly what did this God do when he created the flood? Wasn’t all life on the planet killed by the flood created by this God except for Noah, his wife, their children and their wives and not forgetting all animals etc? Then there is the story of the Egyptians chasing the Israelites and the parting of the seas to drown the Egyptian army.
Didn’t God tell the Israelites to attack and take over Jericho and kill the inhabitants as the first of many towns?
Oh! I see! It’s a case of do as I say, not as I do.
Religion evolved to try and wrest control from the ruling classes. It is nothing more than a means of controlling the population. In some countries Islam has a stronger hold over the people than the government.
If people want to believe in some mystical being and it gives them some degree of comfort then that is fine by me but don’t even bother trying to convert me. More importantly stop brainwashing children into your beliefs before they are old enough to evaluate things for themselves.
jambutty said:
Well I was with you all the way there Jambutty until the above statements. First of all I hope that 'don't even try to convert me' was just a random statment as I can't see anyone trying to convert anyone on here. People are just sharing their beliefs, converting someone has to be done by choice not something that you are made to do kicking and screaming. You keep your beliefs but allow others to have their own without being accused of trying to 'convert' people please.
As for brainwashing children, I don't think so! My mother as a baby wasn't allowed into my Great Grandmothers home until she had been Churched but doesn't have religion. It did her no harm. It is a parents right to choose their childs religion and when the child is old enough they will rebel against it if it's not what they believe.
I was packed off to the Methodist Sunday School every week as a child. Neither of my parents were Methodists but I think their Sunday School was convenient. I rebelled against it and after a period of not believing in anything I came to my own decision to "test" if God was there with a sort of "I don't know if you do exist but just in case you do I'm talking to you". I then went on to search for a meaning, purpose whatever you want to call it and that took me many places before I ended up where I am today.
Yes, I bring my children up in the church I belong to because I believe in it. I also believe they have minds of their own and will one day either choose to stay or choose to leave. I know people who have children who were brought up on the church and who now no longer attend, or have one child who does and one who doesn't. One friend of mine is the only one of her brothers and sisters who is an active member of the church. So it can't exactly be brainwashing can it or they'd all still be active. On the other hand we've got one young woman whose own mother is no longer an active member but she the daughter has become an active member by her own choice. So it's all individual.
I like the way children are taught about other religions and know much more about the rest of the world. If anything could be considered indoctrination perhaps it's the theory of evolution which despite it being a theory with more than a couple of holes in it is still taught as concrete fact in schools.
I don't think anyone can actually convert anyone else to their beliefs anyway. I think we can explain what we believe and why but conversion comes from within. It has to. No-one can be converted on the strength of what someone else believes. I remember a returned missionary being asked how many people he converted and the answer was "None, but the Holy Spirit converted quite a few."
Yes, I bring my children up in the church I belong to because I believe in it. I also believe they have minds of their own and will one day either choose to stay or choose to leave. I know people who have children who were brought up on the church and who now no longer attend, or have one child who does and one who doesn't. One friend of mine is the only one of her brothers and sisters who is an active member of the church. So it can't exactly be brainwashing can it or they'd all still be active. On the other hand we've got one young woman whose own mother is no longer an active member but she the daughter has become an active member by her own choice. So it's all individual.
I like the way children are taught about other religions and know much more about the rest of the world. If anything could be considered indoctrination perhaps it's the theory of evolution which despite it being a theory with more than a couple of holes in it is still taught as concrete fact in schools.
I don't think anyone can actually convert anyone else to their beliefs anyway. I think we can explain what we believe and why but conversion comes from within. It has to. No-one can be converted on the strength of what someone else believes. I remember a returned missionary being asked how many people he converted and the answer was "None, but the Holy Spirit converted quite a few."
This is a great thread! Better than politics, especially this week!
Has anyone ever listened to Bill Hicks? I think he was one of the funniest men ever and he certainly had it in for neo-cons.His stuff is on iTunes. 'Dinosaurs In The Bible' and 'Living God' are so funny. Has anyone else heard him and what do they think?
I think if anyone wants a good laugh start with Arizona Bay - hilarious.
Has anyone ever listened to Bill Hicks? I think he was one of the funniest men ever and he certainly had it in for neo-cons.His stuff is on iTunes. 'Dinosaurs In The Bible' and 'Living God' are so funny. Has anyone else heard him and what do they think?
I think if anyone wants a good laugh start with Arizona Bay - hilarious.
My “don’t bother trying to convert me” wasn’t directed at anyone on this forum Tinkerbelle but a general statement to anyone with aspirations of being a missionary.
I’ll tell you how brain washed children were in my day. It was very subtle starting with morning assembly prayers. If we had school dinners we had to say grace before AND AFTER the meal. Even at the tender age of 5 we had Catholic religious instructions usually given by a priest from the church associated with the school. We had learned a simple version of the Ten Commandments off by heart before we could even add up simple numbers. Before we had left primary school we were taught the Catechism and we were each given a rosary. I can remember word for word prayers not just in English but in Latin and I never did Latin as a language lesson in school. As far as I know that degree of brain washing doesn’t happen these days except in church schools.
I’ll tell you how brain washed children were in my day. It was very subtle starting with morning assembly prayers. If we had school dinners we had to say grace before AND AFTER the meal. Even at the tender age of 5 we had Catholic religious instructions usually given by a priest from the church associated with the school. We had learned a simple version of the Ten Commandments off by heart before we could even add up simple numbers. Before we had left primary school we were taught the Catechism and we were each given a rosary. I can remember word for word prayers not just in English but in Latin and I never did Latin as a language lesson in school. As far as I know that degree of brain washing doesn’t happen these days except in church schools.
Does that happen in church schools today, given that many children attending church schools seem to be muslim?
Thanks for explaining that, and from your explanation I do actually understand now were you are coming from. I do have my own opinions on it too but wouldn't feel it was fair of me to criticise Roman Catholics in particular, though I will agree I have known many people who felt restricted and controlled by the religion as children that still affects them into adulthood ....... but on the other hand many adults who have and still do have great faith In Catholicism.
To quote Willow, "As for how long creation took, well how long is one of God's days? A year? A thousand years? A million, a billion years?". I have a theory, for what use it may be, if the "Big Bang " story is correct, then imagine at the centre of the explosion there is a nucleus and millions of years ago everything was revolving and moving away from the center to the outer reaches of the universe, then at the time a revolution of the star systems and indeed our solar system took less time than it does now but it was still referred to as a day/week/month/year etc... This would explain why the Biblical characters lived for hundreds of years because a year was but a fraction of the time it is today.
Being on the wrong side of 69 I have no idea what happens in secular schools today regarding religion. But I do know from second hand experience (grandchildren) that in church schools the church religion is taught, and as I understand it even more so in Muslim schools. How many Muslim children attend a Catholic or Church of England school? None!
If you want to influence how a person thinks, the way to do it is to plant the seed as early as possible in the child’s life. This has been happening since religion began. It is only later in life that some children see through the religious ethos and rebel. However the other side of the coin is that non religious adults have converted to a religion through choice. Some people have a need of something better to believe in than their humdrum lives and religion plays on this need by offering an afterlife if they follow the rules that have been laid down. Why do you think there are so many suicide bombers around? They have been brainwashed into believing that there is a better afterlife to what we have on Earth. In Catholicism suicide is a mortal sin and no one enters Heaven with a mortal sin unless they confess and do penance. Just exactly how does a successful suicide make a confession? They go straight to hell. If there is a supreme and all powerful God, by definition there can only be one. So how come if a Muslim commits suicide in furthering the cause of Islam he goes and sits by the side of Allah but a Catholic is condemned to Hell. They can’t both be right.
Katex – laughing at a person’s post is at the best rude.
If you want to influence how a person thinks, the way to do it is to plant the seed as early as possible in the child’s life. This has been happening since religion began. It is only later in life that some children see through the religious ethos and rebel. However the other side of the coin is that non religious adults have converted to a religion through choice. Some people have a need of something better to believe in than their humdrum lives and religion plays on this need by offering an afterlife if they follow the rules that have been laid down. Why do you think there are so many suicide bombers around? They have been brainwashed into believing that there is a better afterlife to what we have on Earth. In Catholicism suicide is a mortal sin and no one enters Heaven with a mortal sin unless they confess and do penance. Just exactly how does a successful suicide make a confession? They go straight to hell. If there is a supreme and all powerful God, by definition there can only be one. So how come if a Muslim commits suicide in furthering the cause of Islam he goes and sits by the side of Allah but a Catholic is condemned to Hell. They can’t both be right.
I think that the word allegedly fits in there somewhere. Noah reputedly lived for 950 years whilst Joshua only managed 110.
Katex – laughing at a person’s post is at the best rude.
jambutty said:
I know Butty .. 'tis rude, however, not as articulate as yourself and thought straight to the point and how I felt at the time. Will behave better next time, promise. Anyway, you saying it all for me as agree with every word, but as Gayle has said won't change people's beliefs even when you talk common sense. Anyway, was the theory I was laughing at and, as you know, all scientists, have been laughed at during the past for these, only to be proved correct, so may be laughing on the other side of my face at some stage.
I never had my children christened as thought it would be like putting their name down for a political party before they could form their own opinions.
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It's my considered opinion that organised religion is, probably, the biggest con ever perpetrated against man by man. It is all a matter of control, and like has been said in earlier posts, if you get 'em young and frighten them with all kinds of hellfire if they don't do as they're told, and promises of heaven if they do as they're told, you stand a better chance of retaining them for the rest of their lives.
What kind of ever loving, all forgiving, all-powerful wonderful father figure, would condemn his sons and daughters to an eternity in hell which is supposed to be the worst place you could possibly imagine. I would not wish that upon my children no matter what they did. Let them be punished for things they do wrong most certainly, but an ETERNITY IN HELL. I don't think so. Where is this 'turn the other cheek' attitude we all hear so much about? The quality of mercy etc.? How come we are supposed to thank God for all the good things that happen, but we are not allowed to lay any blame at His door for all the bad things that happen? Plenty of that around these days eh? Much of it done in the name of religion. I cringe when I hear people say, "God saved us." when they are talking about narrowly missing death because of Hurricane Katrina or some such tragedy. Well, what about all the people who died? Why didn't he save them? Surely, this all powerful being would have been better employed calming the Hurricane rather than picking odd people out here and there to save from its wrath.
It's all a matter of faith we are told. Well, happily, I woke up and smelt the coffee. If you're not allowed to question anything but just believe whatever you are told then that, to my mind, is a cult. My wife is a devout Christian and prays for me every day because she considers I am heading for the lower regions when I pop my clogs. I love her dearly and would not want her to lose her faith if it makes her feel better about her life and the life which she is expecting hereafter. However, she really shouldn't waste her prayers on me.
What kind of ever loving, all forgiving, all-powerful wonderful father figure, would condemn his sons and daughters to an eternity in hell which is supposed to be the worst place you could possibly imagine. I would not wish that upon my children no matter what they did. Let them be punished for things they do wrong most certainly, but an ETERNITY IN HELL. I don't think so. Where is this 'turn the other cheek' attitude we all hear so much about? The quality of mercy etc.? How come we are supposed to thank God for all the good things that happen, but we are not allowed to lay any blame at His door for all the bad things that happen? Plenty of that around these days eh? Much of it done in the name of religion. I cringe when I hear people say, "God saved us." when they are talking about narrowly missing death because of Hurricane Katrina or some such tragedy. Well, what about all the people who died? Why didn't he save them? Surely, this all powerful being would have been better employed calming the Hurricane rather than picking odd people out here and there to save from its wrath.
It's all a matter of faith we are told. Well, happily, I woke up and smelt the coffee. If you're not allowed to question anything but just believe whatever you are told then that, to my mind, is a cult. My wife is a devout Christian and prays for me every day because she considers I am heading for the lower regions when I pop my clogs. I love her dearly and would not want her to lose her faith if it makes her feel better about her life and the life which she is expecting hereafter. However, she really shouldn't waste her prayers on me.
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I think a lot of us feel that way. I was brought up Catholic but, though my mother was of that denomination and came from an old pre-reformation English Catholic family, my father was an agnostic (previously brought up as a Baptist). Through my dad I learned, first of all, how evil and nonsensical religious intolerance is. He had witnessed at first hand the intolerance of his family and his adoptive parents when he married my mum and he treated all those with similar views with scorn. He never questioned my mother's beliefs or my educational indoctrination by the sisters at Paddock House but he taught me to be rational.
I married in the Catholic church, though my husband was not of that persuasion, but I had already begun to have serious doubts, not particularly about the Catholic faith but about Faith in general. My first 2 children were baptised Catholic but I must admit it was more in the cause of tradition than devotion on my part. By the time they were ready for school I had no faith and seeing the evils of inter-religious bigotry, particularly as in Northern Ireland, I did not bring them up in any denomination at all.
My third child was not christened. At the age of 7 she started to go to the local Methodist Sunday School, because she wanted to. That was fine by me. After a couple of years she quite fancied being a Catholic and went to mass a couple of times, then she decided she would rather like to be a Jew but we didn't have a synagogue nearby so she gave up the idea. After that she became a devoted Humanist. In a way that has lasted but today, at the age of 30, she is just a very caring person who puts people first.
I love reading the Bible. I find the stories fascinating as a history of the world, as it was known at the time, put into allegory. I have no quarrel with those who take every word as verbatim because, like my dad, I believe in tolerance. I can pick holes in any theory of the Creationists but I would not do so in order to convert them to my philosophy and I won't be converted to theirs.
I married in the Catholic church, though my husband was not of that persuasion, but I had already begun to have serious doubts, not particularly about the Catholic faith but about Faith in general. My first 2 children were baptised Catholic but I must admit it was more in the cause of tradition than devotion on my part. By the time they were ready for school I had no faith and seeing the evils of inter-religious bigotry, particularly as in Northern Ireland, I did not bring them up in any denomination at all.
My third child was not christened. At the age of 7 she started to go to the local Methodist Sunday School, because she wanted to. That was fine by me. After a couple of years she quite fancied being a Catholic and went to mass a couple of times, then she decided she would rather like to be a Jew but we didn't have a synagogue nearby so she gave up the idea. After that she became a devoted Humanist. In a way that has lasted but today, at the age of 30, she is just a very caring person who puts people first.
I love reading the Bible. I find the stories fascinating as a history of the world, as it was known at the time, put into allegory. I have no quarrel with those who take every word as verbatim because, like my dad, I believe in tolerance. I can pick holes in any theory of the Creationists but I would not do so in order to convert them to my philosophy and I won't be converted to theirs.
Arn't we getting off topic ?? "Creation versus Evolution"
If we have evolved can you explain something to me ?
We use less than 1% of our brain, many(sceintists) say less than 1/1000th of it.So the Theory of evolution says that we evolve out of need.Always bettering ourselves. How have we got too the point of being more than 100 times brainier than we currently are and then evolving backwards to this point ?
And when in our history did we show this much larger brain usage ???
P.s. why did we ever lose the ability to breath underwater ? if we evolved from fish? would be very usefull in this planet of 3/4 water ??
If we have evolved can you explain something to me ?
We use less than 1% of our brain, many(sceintists) say less than 1/1000th of it.So the Theory of evolution says that we evolve out of need.Always bettering ourselves. How have we got too the point of being more than 100 times brainier than we currently are and then evolving backwards to this point ?
And when in our history did we show this much larger brain usage ???
P.s. why did we ever lose the ability to breath underwater ? if we evolved from fish? would be very usefull in this planet of 3/4 water ??
simon said:
I'm not fully understanding what you are trying to say here Simon. When were we at the point of being 100 times brainier than we are now and who measured this for us? I would have thought that we are certainly 'more clever' now than we have ever been. We have made unbelievable technological strides in the last 50 years. When I was a child, our class was told by our teacher that "one day" man would walk on the moon, but it would not be in our lifetime. It was a reasonable assumption at the time I think.