Degree Level for nursing

jaysay

jaysay

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BBC NEWS | Health | Nursing to become graduate entry

Its been announced that as from 2013 anyone wanting to enter the nursing profession will have to be educated to degree level, I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not. To me nursing has always been about vocation, it takes a very special person to take on looking after the sick, I for one couldn't do it. Okay there has to be a pretty high level of education in this day and age, but to insist on the level may put off many young people from entering the profession, therefore leaving the NHS dangerously understaffed
 
I heard this too and I am a little confused. Does it mean that someone has to have a degree before they enter the nursing profession or does it mean that after 3 years training to be a nurse you end up a bachelor of nursing? If it is the former, are people with a degree, say joint honours (1st class) in media and lesbian studies qualified to walk on to wards and then stick needles in patient's bums? And if it is the latter, will people spend their years training in the lecture room on ethnic and gay awareness courses? Will they know how to do hospital corners or empty bedpans...can anyone help to clear this up?
 
as its been in Wales since 2004, reckon the best course would be to consult wi the taffys, management n nurses before embarking on this.
 
I think it means that they must be educated to a degree level, not necessarily to actually have a degree, but to have that level of education.

I think that it is a backward step. Nursing is a practical skill.....needs a hands on approach.
I am glad I did my nursing when I did, because with these restrictions I would never have got a chance.
I loved the job because it was never the same two days running.
I loved dealing with patients, and doing my best for them.
I think that people who have a degree level of education willp robably choose careers that are more lucrative and with a better career structure, and I can see that the basic tasks (toileting, btm washing, showering, feeding patients) will be delegated to the care assistant, HCA, auxiliary....and that isn't good. You get to know the most about your patients by being involved in every aspect of their care.....which includes the mundane(although I didn't find these tasks so)tasks.

If a person wishes to do the technical stuff, and they are educated to degree level, let them become doctors.
Nursing care(care, being the operative word here) has not improved by making the nurse better educated.....the giving of care is intuitive, and common sense based.
 
Margaret Pilkington said:
I think it means that they must be educated to a degree level, not necessarily to actually have a degree, but to have that level of education.

I think that it is a backward step. Nursing is a practical skill.....needs a hands on approach.
I am glad I did my nursing when I did, because with these restrictions I would never have got a chance.
I loved the job because it was never the same two days running.
I loved dealing with patients, and doing my best for them.
I think that people who have a degree level of education willp robably choose careers that are more lucrative and with a better career structure, and I can see that the basic tasks (toileting, btm washing, showering, feeding patients) will be delegated to the care assistant, HCA, auxiliary....and that isn't good. You get to know the most about your patients by being involved in every aspect of their care.....which includes the mundane(although I didn't find these tasks so)tasks.

If a person wishes to do the technical stuff, and they are educated to degree level, let them become doctors.
Nursing care(care, being the operative word here) has not improved by making the nurse better educated.....the giving of care is intuitive, and common sense based.
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Was hoping you would reply to this Margaret, and I have to say, having been some one who's been on the other side of the bed pan or so to say,:D I totally agree with everything you've said, think there's a saying in the nursing profession these days about the new high tech nurses "too posh to wash" can't see things getting better anytime soon:rolleyes:
 
Yes, Jaysay.......I was sister on the ward when some of these degree students were allocated to us for their educational needs, they did not want to be involved with basic care tasks.
They wanted to do ECG's, they wanted to do other technical stuff, but they didn't want to do pre-op shaves, toileting of patients, helping with hygiene needs, feeding patients, wiping bottoms.
They really didn't want to be nurses, they wanted to be technicians....to flit in and do a task they considered to be commensurate with their level of education and then go on to the next technical task.
What is more, some of them felt that the auxiliaries, care assistants,HCA's were beneath them.....but believe me these care assistants, auxiliaries, HCA's had the very best bit of the job......actually nursing patients....making a difference to their day, making them feel comfortable.......and of course helping them to return to full health.
these degree students gave the impression that the auxiliaries were educationally inferior to them.......the experience that they had gained by looking after countless patients was not considered to be 'education'.

I have had the pleasure of working with some very capable, kind, caring auxilairy nurses.
I learned a lot from them....because they had good common sense and a caring attitude....and I know who I would like to be looked after by if ever I were ill....and it wouldn't necessarily be a degree educated Nurse.
 
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I think it's great if nurses want to do a degree, if they can find the time inbetween working, as Lettie has recently done, but I don't necessarily think academic qualifications make a nurse a good nurse.

I've recently come into contact with some nurses with no people skills at all, and who shouldn't be employed to deal with people at all, nevermind nurse them. On the other hand I've seen auxillaries who provided wonderful nursing care.
 
Bringing back matrons/patrons doesn't work....the structure of nursing was different in the days of the real Matron........and you can never back pedal to those days from the past......there has been far to much political meddling.

I am not against nurses getting a degree if that is what they want to do, but I am against requiring people who want to become nurses from having to have that level of education. It will exclude many candidates who would make excellent(practical) nurses because of their perceived lack of educational ability.
 
I can add nothing to what Margaret P said, she sums it all up perfectly. We need nurses who smooth brows as well as nurses who know how much nasty medicine to give.
 
Margaret Pilkington said:
Yes, Jaysay.......I was sister on the ward when some of these degree students were allocated to us for their educational needs, they did not want to be involved with basic care tasks.
They wanted to do ECGs, they wanted to do other technical stuff, but they didn't want to do pre-op shaves, toileting of patients, helping with hygiene needs, feeding patients, wiping bottoms.
They really didn't want to be nurses, they wanted to be technicians....to flit in and do a task they considered to be commensurate with their level of education and then go on to the next technical task.
What is more, some of them felt that the auxiliaries, care assistants,HCAs were beneath them.....but believe me these care assistants, auxiliaries, HCAs had the very best bit of the job......actually nursing patients....making a difference to their day, making them feel comfortable.......and of course helping them to return to full health.
these degree students gave the impression that the auxiliaries were educationally inferior to them.......the experience that they had gained by looking after countless patients was not considered to be 'education'.

I have had the pleasure of working with some very capable, kind, caring auxiliary nurses.
I learned a lot from them....because they had good common sense and a caring attitude....and I know who I would like to be looked after by if ever I were ill....and it wouldn't necessarily be a degree educated Nurse.
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Can't agree more Margaret about auxiliaries(Oggies) I have come across some crackers over the years, most of whom have now retired, mores the pity, they were worth their weight in gold on a busy ward, especially at night if there was a run on. In fact I was actually talking to an lass who was an Oggy on E3, during my latest stay in the Royal, I've seen her quite a few times recently, she decided to pack in the nursing side and trained to be phlebotomist (think that's the official title, better known as the Dracula squad) but we still remembered the old days on E3
 
jaysay said:
BBC NEWS | Health | Nursing to become graduate entry

Its been announced that as from 2013 anyone wanting to enter the nursing profession will have to be educated to degree level, I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not. To me nursing has always been about vocation, it takes a very special person to take on looking after the sick, I for one couldn't do it. Okay there has to be a pretty high level of education in this day and age, but to insist on the level may put off many young people from entering the profession, therefore leaving the NHS dangerously understaffed
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so will we now be paying for the polish etc to get a degree so they can be nurses here i wonder :rolleyes:

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i wonder if part of teh degree will be how to wash your hands
 
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I think it's just part of the trend towards having degrees for everything ... Hamburger University, the intellectual and philosophical core of McDonald's, is a case in point. Hamburger Flipping 101 is a pre-requisite for Advanced Mustard Application:rolleyes::D
 
Bah! When was the last time any of you actually saw a 'real nurse' doing any nursing?

Those that do all the 'nursing' jobs like :- looking after patients (soon to be known as customers..I kid you not), changing beds, cleaning up bodily fluids, enemas, shaving, etc..etc..etc.. are not in fact qualified nurses..they are care assistants in all but name, and deserve recognition for their unrewarded work.

'Real nurses' are the ones stood at 'nurse stations' who stare at you, with vacant looks on their face, should you ask anything about the welfare of people on their wards. They are the ones that spout platitudes like 'I don't know which ward he's on now, I wasn't on shift when he moved' or 'I'm training here, I usually work in the <insert greek word here> department'. They are overpaid, underworked and spend most of their time bleating about car parking, unsociable hours and how hard done to they are.

Its these 'real nurses' that will be educated to degree level..and why not..they do beggar all else, they may as well jump on the 'advanced mustard application'(©Eric 2009) bandwagon
 
Well I have just got back from Alder Hey hospital in Liverpool and believe you me the nurses on the ward I was visiting were all doing the jobs caring nurses should be prepared to do without question. IE besides caring for the children on the ward they were cleaning beds and cots that had been vacated, making them up ready for the next patients, bringing sick bowls and toilet pans to the kids that needed them etc. You don't need a degree to be a nurse but you do need to care about the patients in your care IMHO.
 
Guinness said:
Bah! When was the last time any of you actually saw a 'real nurse' doing any nursing?

Those that do all the 'nursing' jobs like :- looking after patients (soon to be known as customers..I kid you not), changing beds, cleaning up bodily fluids, enemas, shaving, etc..etc..etc.. are not in fact qualified nurses..they are care assistants in all but name, and deserve recognition for their unrewarded work.

'Real nurses' are the ones stood at 'nurse stations' who stare at you, with vacant looks on their face, should you ask anything about the welfare of people on their wards. They are the ones that spout platitudes like 'I don't know which ward he's on now, I wasn't on shift when he moved' or 'I'm training here, I usually work in the <insert greek word here> department'. They are overpaid, underworked and spend most of their time bleating about car parking, unsociable hours and how hard done to they are.

Its these 'real nurses' that will be educated to degree level..and why not..they do beggar all else, they may as well jump on the 'advanced mustard application'(©Eric 2009) bandwagon
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I retired from nursing seven years ago........I was one of the 'real' nurses, even though, as Sister on the ward, I had managerial responsibilities, I liked making the beds, doing the medicines, bed-bathing.......all these were the jobs where you got to know your patient.......I would see my ladies every day I was on duty...which was five days out of seven.......whereas some of my Staff Nurses would do 3 shifts of 12 hours and consequently would not know their patients.
I consider that I was a good nurse, and many people told me that I was.......I nursed patients how I would want my mother cared for.

I was a late starter to nursing, had no paper qualifications (and as such when these new directives are implemented, would not stand a chance).....paper qualifications mean absolutely nothing if the desire to care for people is not there.

Degree Education does not lead to better standards of care.
 
Margaret Pilkington said:
I retired from nursing seven years ago........I was one of the 'real' nurses, even though, as Sister on the ward, I had managerial responsibilities, I liked making the beds, doing the medicines, bed-bathing.......all these were the jobs where you got to know your patient.......I would see my ladies every day I was on duty...which was five days out of seven.......whereas some of my Staff Nurses would do 3 shifts of 12 hours and consequently would not know their patients.
I consider that I was a good nurse, and many people told me that I was.......I nursed patients how I would want my mother cared for.

I was a late starter to nursing, had no paper qualifications (and as such when these new directives are implemented, would not stand a chance).....paper qualifications mean absolutely nothing if the desire to care for people is not there.

Degree Education does not lead to better standards of care.
Click to expand...

I have no doubt whatsoever that you found your true vocation and were good at your job. Even 7 years ago, you must admit you were in the minority, nowadays its even worse. Nurses think they are some kind of elite, deserving of respect and Florence Nightingale kudos without putting in the lamp time. Let me give an example I recently came across.

Anyone being admitted from any type of care home is expected to provide a care staff to give care to them because the nurses cant cope with care related matters, they have no idea of how to deal with dementia or incontinence, let alone autism or learning disabilities. These care staff have only NVQ's as a qualification and are looked down on by these nurses with their medical background and are offered no help at all whilst looking after their charges in hospital. Yet these carers have more training, more hands on care, more consideration for the people they look after, more stringent demands on continuous professional development and deal with far more issues in a single day than nurses deal with in a month. And these people are paid probably about a 1/3 as much as your average whiny nurse, and work more unsociable hours.

Guess who I want to care for me when I reach my dotage?
 
I like to think that I led by example, and that my nursing team knew what was expected of them....and that was to give care.
Also, at that time there were still a lot of nurses around who trained under the old scheme...which was a bit like an apprenticeship.
Now many of those nurses have retired, so the current nurses have had a different kind of training......and sadly most of them come into nursing for the wrong reasons.
They come into nursing to pay the mortgage(and I am not saying that nurses should not get a reasonable wage) rather than to make a difference to peoples lives.

ALL nurses on the wards work unsocial hours.....it comes with the territory.......and my suggestion would be to those who don't like it.....leave and do something else.
Patients will always need to be looked after.
 
why do we need nurses these days, my doctors receptionists seem pretty qualified to determin wether i need a doctor or not so why not sling them into the hospitals and put people into the doctors to do what they are supposed to do which is to answer the phone , make an appointment and under no circumstances ask the person whats wrong with them :)

we dont go to teh doctors for a fun day out , times are hard but as of yet sitting amongst other sick people hasnt yet become a day trip

oh and not havin whats up with you discussed within earshot of other patients as soon as your backs turned would be nice :rolleyes:
 
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